cylinder full of antifreeze

[Marcus52]

This is hard to write, especially after just reading other posts. :(

I am the 5th owner of a Vesuvio 1999 - 996- c2. It has 97,000 miles and I have not driven it for a month. Decided to take it into town to fill up with gas, plus heat it up for it's oil change in prep for winter storage. It has never given me any problems, but driving to the gas station, it developed a miss. After filling it up with gas, I got the huge steam plume when starting it up, but it went away as I drove 3 miles back to my home.

While driving home, no steam plume at all, just occasional miss. then sometimes it was firing on all six. Today, I decided to pull the spark plugs, to look for bad plug or coil. pulled last plug on driver's side, plug farthest back, plug was sopping wet. Took off air filter so I could crank engine over with a wrench. The cylinder appeared full of antifreeze, judging by the amount that hit the ground.

There does not appear to be any contamination of the engine oil, checking the dipstick. Also, for the last two months of steady driving, it had cel codes 1124 and 1126, which said was a bad O2 sensor, which I replaced, but codes came back again, even after I cleared them , after O2 sensor was replaced.

After reading many posts, it appears a lot of people are ready to just "write off" the engine as a total loss. I have rebuilt several american engines in my lifetime. I have worked on engines for 41 years now. I am considering a tear down of this engine and an attempt to rebuild whatever is faulty. I do not seem to have a water in oil, or oil in water situation, which seems to be the case for a lot of people with the 996.

I understand porous engines, and the other common issues that seen to plague this engine from the many posts I read this evening. Has anyone ever successfully torn the engine down, replaced the defective parts, and had a good runner again? I got a great price for this car last October and I have put 16,000 miles on it since I bought it. I have saved myself and my family literally tens of thousands of dollars over the past 35 years, and I am "up" for a good challenge ( fix it myself) if it is possible. Is it really a total loss?

Respectfully Submitted, Mark

[blundgren77]

I haven't personally but others on here have rebuilt engines without issue, and Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations pretty much has written the book on the process of ripping some of these engines apart and getting them back together again better than new.

The only kicker is the need to either buy, and/or make some special tools to hold, insert, and remove various parts of the engine, timing chains, and etc.

LN Engineering is a source for pistons, rods, and other goodies for these engines. http://www.lnengineering.com/

And Flat 6 is at: http://www.flat6innovations.com/

Might be worth a call to him to run what you've found past him (sometimes he's on this forum also) and see what his take on things is. Not impossible - just major PITA. :)

[txhokie4life]

I haven't personally but others on here have rebuilt engines without issue, and Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations pretty much has written the book on the process of ripping some of these engines apart and getting them back together again better than new.

The only kicker is the need to either buy, and/or make some special tools to hold, insert, and remove various parts of the engine, timing chains, and etc.

LN Engineering is a source for pistons, rods, and other goodies for these engines. http://www.lnengineering.com/

And Flat 6 is at: http://www.flat6innovations.com/

Might be worth a call to him to run what you've found past him (sometimes he's on this forum also) and see what his take on things is. Not impossible - just major PITA. :)

Check out my projects -- the first one is my every day driver and now is approaching 7000 miles on the rebuilt engine.

2000 Boxster S rebuild

99 IMS Failure

Mike

[carsareart]

As my car passes through 120,000 miles I have been starting to read these post with much interest. Best of luck with your project. Please keep us informed.

[whall]

Mark,

Check out this series of videos - 00 to 14 - on rebuilding a M96 engine:

www.986fix.com

Bill

Edited September 27, 2009 by Loren
made video show

[Marcus52]

Wow! I am encouraged that there is hope. Thanks guys for the info and encouragement. I did despair at first, got angry at Porsche, etc. etc. I can honestly say that I do not feel like I am alone and on my own. This is a great forum with great members, and as you all know: once you drive a 911, you are hooked. I want to get back to being an adreneline junkie again.

I did fire off an email to flat6innovations. I am very interested in what he thinks about my problem, and the cost to have the engine rebuilt with his technology. Has anyone been quoted a price, if the engine block is delivered to his doorstep?

Thanks again guys! Mark

[bmohr]

i think it's around 14-16k. Best of luck. I ditto carsareart's comment as i too have 120k on my 99 daily driver and have been mulling my options down the road..hopefully far enough down the road where I can buy a newer model for daily driver while rebuilding the 3.4. I'm actually excited for you. It's going to be a great experience i'm sure.

[Marcus52]

I will not be able to disassemble the 996 until Spring 2010. Right now I assume a cracked cylinder.

I have done some searching, but did not come up with an answer to this question: Has anyone installed steel liners instead of "nickies"?

I understand about two dissimilar metals have different expansion and contraction rates (steel and aluminum), however, there are a lot of engines out there which do exactly that - steel liners in an aluminum engine. Steel is an advantage over aluminum. Also, you would not need to remove as much of the original aluminum block, as a steel liner can be thinner that an aluminum insert. I respect those who offer a service of installing nickies, and putting to rest once and for all the short falls of the Porsche design.

Are there other viable options (steel liner), especially for someone who has the ability to do a complete rebuild themselves?

I hope this does not set off a firestorm......

Mark ( remember, I am approaching senior citizen status - so go easy on me! )

[fpb111]

It sounds like a cracked 1-3 cylinder head. See Dharn55 posts about this on rennlist. Post #1 4-26-09 has pics

[JeTexas]

I second the cracked cylinder head guess. Apparently Dharn55 found a place in New Mexico that can reweld and repair the cracked heads.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...harn55+cylinder

[Marcus52]

I have not checked Renntech for quite some time. Thanks for the added info about cylinder heads. I am not going to wait until Spring 2010.

I am in the process of creating room in my 1 1/2 car garage and get some heat in there and hopefully pull the engine and tranny within the next 3 weeks. I see there is a place in the Chicago area that installs nickies and chromium ims bearing, and they also suggest a lower temp thermostat... that makes sense to me.

I have not checked with local machine shops yet about boring cylinders and installing iron sleeves. I am concerned that this might be considered a "too hot to touch" request. I live near the Kalamazoo area in southwest Michigan. I really need to determine what is wrong before I start asking questions.

My gut feeling right now is that even if it is a cracked head, now would be the time to go the extra step / expense to eliminate the possibility of cracked cylinders in the future.

I want to run the car hard .... after all..... that is what some of the newest Porsche commercials state.

Mark

[Marcus52]

Which engine do I really have? My alldatadiy manual says the special tool used to remove the cam cover will be bolted to a head bolt and the two extended bolts of this tool then reach into the head and hold something in place so I can remove the cam cover without causing damage.

My cam cover is not set up that way. It says "Variocam F1" it appears that I can remove the cam cover without damaging any internal parts, without any tool.

Gentlemen: This is a 1999 996, which is supposed to have a 3.4L engine. Do I have a 3.6L engine? a 3.8L? how can I tell? Is there a serial number somewhere on the engine that tells me what I have here?

I have searched several different forums to no avail.

Thanks! I know someone will come thru for me.

Mark

[txhokie4life]

Which engine do I really have? My alldatadiy manual says the special tool used to remove the cam cover will be bolted to a head bolt and the two extended bolts of this tool then reach into the head and hold something in place so I can remove the cam cover without causing damage.

My cam cover is not set up that way. It says "Variocam F1" it appears that I can remove the cam cover without damaging any internal parts, without any tool.

Gentlemen: This is a 1999 996, which is supposed to have a 3.4L engine. Do I have a 3.6L engine? a 3.8L? how can I tell? Is there a serial number somewhere on the engine that tells me what I have here?

I have searched several different forums to no avail.

Thanks! I know someone will come thru for me.

Mark

On the bottom of the engine near the oil pan is a plate or stamp with an engine serial number.

Loren has posted a picture of it on here before.

Mike

[Marcus52]

Thanks. I will check that tomorrow.

I will assume that somewhere on the forum I can determine what I have by the serial number.

Mark

[Dharn55]

You will need a tools to secure the cams with any M96 engine. PM me with you email and I will send you plans for the tools and other info. I have been through this and have alot of tips, etc. for you. Ihave been planning to write a DIY but have not gotten to it yet. I have been working with two others who have cracked heads.

Also have some work arounds for other "tools" that are usually required. Lots of pictures that might help.

[Dharn55]

The odds of having anything but a 3.4 are pretty slim, there are alot of mods necesary to put a 3.6 or 3.8 in a 3.4 car, and yours is early enough that is is probably not a e-gas, but a mechanical thottle. If it says VarioCam F1 it is a 3.4. You definitely need a tool to hold the cams when you take off the cover. PM me your email and I will send you a diagram for the tool and pictures. I can give you alot of other info and pictures that can be hlepful and some work arounds for the special tools that are "required."

Based on the fact that you did not have oil/water intermix you probably have a cracked liner rather than a head. Although it you caught it right away you may not have gotten the intermix. On my car I never had any smoke or misses, it ran fine. I only found the problem when the coolatn light flashed. Then checked the coolant tank and found "pudding", then checked the oil and it was like a chocolate milk shake. The fact that the coolant was at the #1 cylinder (rear on driver side) may mean a cracked cylinder head as this is the most common location, cracks at the inner exhaust valve spring seat. And if it was bad enough it could have leaked antifreeze into the sparkplug chase. They say D-chunks/cracks in the liners are more common in the middle cylinder, but don't know if this is true.

I have been working with a couple of other owners who have had cracked heads, one actually has cracks in both heads (at the same spot on both heads). there are other sources for new liners other than LN's nikkies, but I don't know much about them. I have seen them on Ebay and if you look at Motormeisters web site they have some other source for the engines they are building. But LN and Flat 6 have a great reputation for their products and work.

[phillipj]

Gentlemen: This is a 1999 996, which is supposed to have a 3.4L engine. Do I have a 3.6L engine? a 3.8L? how can I tell? Is there a serial number somewhere on the engine that tells me what I have here?

You have a 3.4

[Marcus52]

Well, the truth is now known. I pulled the 1-3 head off two nights ago. The head appears to be fine. The number one cylinder is cracked near the bottom of the cylinder. It is a diagonal crack about 1 1/2 " long. It is very easy to see, and the cylinder has already starting moving outward, to the point that you can feel it.

I visited the local Porsche expert in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He is going to come up with a price for me to install nickies with new pistons.

I made my own tools, and so far they work great. I am amazed at the engineering that went into this engine, from what I have seen so far. I still need to take off the 4-6 head, and now that the tools are made, and I have done one head already, I am sure the other head will be off much sooner.

For having 91k miles on this engine and being the 5th owner, there does not seem to be much, if any, wear. I base this on the condition of the cam bearing surface, which is simply aluminum.... no brass bearings. The bellow under the oil separator was slightly torn and some oil was getting out and the back 1/4 of the engine is very oily and dirty (from road dust). There is no metal ridge on the top of the cylinder walls, to me that means little wear on the cylinder walls.

The inside of the plastic intake manifold, and the manifold riser are FILTHY. I can only imagine how the engine will run when the inside is smooth and clean again. Not sure if this was caused by the torn bellow.

More to come as I progress.

[Marcus52]

The 4-6 head is now off. One thing I noticed with the 1-3 head is that the cylinder that had antifreeze in it appeared "steam cleaned" in the head, in the combustion chamber. Now that the 4-6 head is off, I can say that the other 5 cylinders had a lot of carbon buildup also, much more than any other engine I have dismantled, that used unleaded fuel. I suspect, but cannot verify, that the torn bellows might have contributed to the filthy build up on the inside of the intake manifold, and now the combustion chambers... anyone had a similar experience????

The local Porsche man is very nice guy, but wants $6k to do basically the same work that LN Engineering will do for $4K.

I am fortunate that LN is 3 hours from my house, so I will drive the block there in the next 2-3 weeks.

It also appears that I have the double row bearing for the IMS. I have not removed it yet, but the bearing cover matches the double row bearing as stated on LN Engineering website.

When complete, I will have 20 more HP, since I will go to a 3.6L engine. I always thought my engine was quite powerful, but maybe I have been missing something, since there has been the filthy, oily, buildup for who knows how long........

[Marcus52]

Well friends, 2010 was quite a year for me. I came down with a mysterious illness and almost passed away. Sorry to be so morbid, but that is what happened. After 3 months of misdiagnoses by several doctors, I ended up in the hospital unable to walk and partially paralyzed. A wonderful Neurologist did 30 minutes of tests and discovered I had Guillain - Barre Syndrome.

Thank God I have made a full recovery,after 6 days in the hospital on a special IV, and 3 months of recovery at home. I am one of the blessed ones I am being told, as some folks experience permanent paralysis in certain parts of their body. All of this because of a bad reaction to a Tetanus shot...

Well so much for personal things. When I was well, I drove the engine block halves down to LM Engineering in Momence, Illinois. The cylnder walls were replaced with the thicker walls, higher alloy aluminum, and nickel plated on the inside. Went from a 3.4 to 3.6 Liter, with new JR pistons. I also purchased the modified thermostat, and the new hybrid IMS bearing.

I assembled the engine in my garage at home, and fired it up late last December. What a letdown to not be able to drive it. I don't have to say much about the very cold winter, and long cold Spring, especially here in Michigan. So this past Monday, the 996 hit the road. I am breaking it in with hard acceleration. WHAT A JOY TO DRIVE IT AGAIN! Yes it is noticeably faster with only a 20 HP increase.

I hope I am now bulletproof with this rebuild. I do want to have a daily driver that will not let me down.

[Dharn55]

Great to hear that you are OK and back on the road!!

[rb101]

Great to hear you and the car have fully recovered. If you don't mind me asking was was your total cost for the LN upgrades.

[logray]

Wow! Great job and welcome back. :jump:

Another one brought back from the dead.

[Marcus52]

1st of all, HATS OFF TO YOU, DOUG! Your advise, emails, instructions, etc. were all that I needed to apparently set the timing perfect, with no CEL light!

I spent approx $7k, but that also included 24 new lifters I was not planning to purchase. I understand that a rebuilt engine directly from Porsche($23K?), if that is the route a person chooses, is not going to have any of the advantages that LN Engineering offers.

There were times I wondered if the tedious work would be worth it. But just getting behind the wheel again, and experiencing the acceleration and handling made it all worth it. WOW, I missed this ride.

This is my 3rd engine rebuild, the first for a Porsche. This was by far the most complex engine I have ever rebuilt.

Once the engine is broken in, I am considering treating it with Motorsilk. I used to be a Slick 50 distributor many years ago, and I follow new products. I have installed Motorsilk ( altboron.com) in my 98 Lexus GS400 and my 02 Lexus SC430 coupe. I am after engine protection, although a mileage increase is a nice feature also. I do not sell this product, nor am I attempting to promote it for financial gain. This appears to be far superior to other products. I may offend Porsche purists by suggesting an additive, but I will do anything to keep this on the road with no more major work.

[wyovino]

Wow, what a story! Glad everything worked out in the end. Enjoy the car in good health.