Quick CEL Question

[rob76turbo]

If one (or more) of the coil packs are not clicked properly into place, with the car give a CEL?

I had a squeak at start up and under partial throttle. Turns out the plugs were loose (I could remove them by hand). So I retightened, but may have missed a coil pack when reconnecting everything. And it is too late and I am tired...

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[Loren]

Yes, you will get a CEL for misfire but it might take a while.

If you are getting a chirp at startup you like forgot to tighten one of the spark plugs.

Best check both the plug tightness and coil pack connectors.

[rob76turbo]

Would have helped if I had connected the #2 coil wire connector.... :huh:

Anyway, thanks Loren, as it turns out the squeak on start up and under partial throttle was loose spark plugs. I added anti-seize compound and tightened. I think that the solid motor mount (now replaced with a 987 MM) was partially to blame.

Edited September 10, 2009 by rob76turbo

[Loren]

Just an FYI... Porsche says do not put anti-seize on the spark plugs.

We suspect that is because of the alloy heads.

[pk2]

To whom it may concern,

Is there a thing with these spark plugs and the alloy of the heads? Mine will be the 3rd instance i have of heard of, of these sparkplugs practically falling out in so many weeks. Mine were in just about finger tight when I replaced them at 35k. This was despite the fact that they have , if I recall, a torque spec that is pretty high.

PK

[Loren]

To whom it may concern,

Is there a thing with these spark plugs and the alloy of the heads? Mine will be the 3rd instance i have of heard of, of these sparkplugs practically falling out in so many weeks. Mine were in just about finger tight when I replaced them at 35k. This was despite the fact that they have , if I recall, a torque spec that is pretty high.

PK

Not that I am aware of - Porsche says do not put anti-seize on the spark plugs.

So, if folks are putting anti-seize on I would try to clean it off.

I have never had a spark plug come loose from a Porsche in the 33 years I have been working on them - and I have never used anti-seize.

You just plain don't need it on Porsche alloy heads.

[JFP in PA]

To whom it may concern,

Is there a thing with these spark plugs and the alloy of the heads? Mine will be the 3rd instance i have of heard of, of these sparkplugs practically falling out in so many weeks. Mine were in just about finger tight when I replaced them at 35k. This was despite the fact that they have , if I recall, a torque spec that is pretty high.

PK

Not that I am aware of - Porsche says do not put anti-seize on the spark plugs.

So, if folks are putting anti-seize on I would try to clean it off.

I have never had a spark plug come loose from a Porsche in the 33 years I have been working on them - and I have never used anti-seize.

You just plain don't need it on Porsche alloy heads.

And in over thirty years of putting plugs in Porsche’s, we never let one out of the shop without anti seize on the plugs……..like other shops, we have seen too many instances where the plugs without it galled and ruined the plug threads. In all those years, we have never had a “come back” because the plugs became lose, and never had a plug gall on us……………….

[pk2]

Thanks guys,

I didn't put any anti-seez compound on them, in fact changed I never changed them before. The first guy must have done the sin....in more ways than one...four kryptonite electrode plugs(or something something like that) ...Weird though isn't it. 3 people on just these forums, all within a couple of weeks, report the same problem.

So is the theory that, we three (and by extrapolation, many,many more outside of these forums) are the victims of anti seize compound?

Regards, PK

Edited September 11, 2009 by pk2

[JFP in PA]

Thanks guys,

I didn't put any anti-seez compound on them, in fact changed I never changed them before. The first guy must have done the sin....in more ways than one...four kryptonite electrode plugs(or something something like that) ...Weird though isn't it. 3 people on just these forums, all within a couple of weeks, report the same problem.

So is the theory that, we three (and by extrapolation, many,many more outside of these forums) are the victims of anti seize compound?

Regards, PK

No, anti seize will not cause the plugs to loosen; more than likely, they were never properly torqued in the first place. The issue with the plugs is you have a steel plug housing threaded into an alloy head in an area that see a lot of thermal swings. That is a recipe for problems as the two metals expand and contract at differing rates. The use of anti seize (in small quantities) on the treads assures that the plug will release and unthread without problems when the time comes.

[Beelzy]

FWIW, I've worked on a pile of different makes of cars, Import and Domestic and have NEVER used anti-seize on spark

plugs. Not even the edge trimmer come to think of it.

Never had a loose plug, and I don't own any plug hole taps either.

[pk2]

Thanks,

Ya, I wasn't very old when I asked the wrong question and got a long doctorial disertation on bi-metalic springs.

Just musing but I remember in my youth using a torch to remove broken studs from blocks, among other places, Yankee steel on steel. It worked but. now I don't understand. If the stud expands and the whole in the block expands...a zero sum gain at best. But back to just a little off topic , worse, is the whole in block going to expand every which way, counteracting whatever the little whole wants to do, and lets say, the hole has got an expanding sparkplug in it...double trouble.

MOD you can delete this if like, no hard feelings, just thinking aloud,might be a better question for science class on Monday .

Regards, PK

Edited September 11, 2009 by pk2

[RFM]

Porsche claimed that the specified torque not will maintain, with anti seize product on the spark plug.

[JFP in PA]

Porsche claimed that the specified torque not will maintain, with anti seize product on the spark plug.

Show me where they say that, not that I accept it in the first place, but humor me and show me...................

I have had people tell this more than once; and as much as I respect the knowledge base of Loren (and others), I am yet to see a Porsche document reference where they tell you not to use anti seize.................

Edited September 11, 2009 by JFP in PA

[pk2]

Well, That kinda says it all, some how slippery or maybe shrinks. If it loses torque it's sure to loose more. I swear I don't know what was holding mine in. the weight of my wrench handle was enough to make the first turn. Guess I was I just lucky to catch them before they fell out.

Thanks, PK

[Beelzy]

For PK:

The answer to your heating a broken stud in a block and why it works.........Cooling rate differential.

The broken stud cools just a tad faster than the block, susequently the stud shrinks in the block and can be removed.

[RFM]

JFP, to make it for you easier (or other forum members), mail or fax spark plug manufacturer ROBERT BOSCH gmbh, Porsche supplier, they can give you in English, what i not have, they're instructions concerning use of anti seize on spark plugs. It speak for itself that you can do what you think is the best for your car.

[Loren]

Bosch says (about their spark plugs) "Nickel-plated rolled threads -- For complete anti-seize and corrosion protection".

[wvicary]

Not to add fuel to the fire but I have never had a Bosch plug freeze in the threads, NGK and other makes yes. That being said I do use anitseize on all the plugs I install but only a very small amount on the first few threads. I also torque the plugs to spec. I have seen a few cases over the years where excessive use of anti-seize has caused a problem where it seems to have coked and made the plug very difficult to remove. I don't know if the fault was in the use of a low temp anti-seize or just too much of it.

[JFP in PA]

Bosch says (about their spark plugs) "Nickel-plated rolled threads -- For complete anti-seize and corrosion protection".

Ah! So it did not come from Porsche, but from Bosch. As many of our clients do not use (or want) Bosch plugs; I still stand by my statement. And, in any case, using anti seize, even on Bosch plugs, does not cause any problems.....................it simply becomes a "belt & suspenders" application.

[JFP in PA]

Not to add fuel to the fire but I have never had a Bosch plug freeze in the threads, NGK and other makes yes. That being said I do use anitseize on all the plugs I install but only a very small amount on the first few threads. I also torque the plugs to spec. I have seen a few cases over the years where excessive use of anti-seize has caused a problem where it seems to have coked and made the plug very difficult to remove. I don't know if the fault was in the use of a low temp anti-seize or just too much of it.

I cannot say that I have ever encountered an anti seize application that created a problem; on plugs or any other fastener for that matter. As I mentioned in my reply to Lorne, not everyone is enamored with Bosch plugs; and we have had excellent life and performance from other brands in our customer base. We also only use a small amount of anti seize, which is spread out evenly over the plug treads prior to insertion and being torqued to specs. We also regularly use a bore scope, which allows us to see any build up on the cylinder head threads; but I cannot honestly say we have ever seen any, so I don’t see that as an issue either.

[pk2]

Beelzy, So no reason doubt you, what your saying is is the steel of the stud or whatever has a different coificient of expansion and by extrapolation , contraction. So, an different alloys s'pose that makes sense. So your really getting the magic when the heat is taken away. I get it, although, if you had a bolt and a matching nut, it probably wouldn't work would it.

Loren: If that combination works, and it obviously does, this is a fine thing. Ironically, rolled threads are kind of commodity grade, usually nothing to crow about,( though they can be a a little stronger). Cut threads are the cat's meow, in some applications anyway. The nickle is half way through the chroming process (copper -> nickle -> chromium). Maybe, it's an ingredient of antifreeze compound, or just tears away because it's a lot softer than chrome.. who knows, they work

Regards, PK

[jworden]

Beelzy, So no reason doubt you, what your saying is is the steel of the stud or whatever has a different coificient of expansion and by extrapolation , contraction. So, an different alloys s'pose that makes sense. So your really getting the magic when the heat is taken away. I get it, although, if you had a bolt and a matching nut, it probably wouldn't work would it.

Regarding the frozen stud - the other possible explanation is that corrosion is contributing to the bond between the stud and its hole - the uneven heating with a torch fractures this bond so that even if you wait until all is cool again you may find the stud has loosened.

[Loren]

Bosch says (about their spark plugs) "Nickel-plated rolled threads -- For complete anti-seize and corrosion protection".

Ah! So it did not come from Porsche, but from Bosch. As many of our clients do not use (or want) Bosch plugs; I still stand by my statement. And, in any case, using anti seize, even on Bosch plugs, does not cause any problems.....................it simply becomes a "belt & suspenders" application.

I'll find one from Porsche - have some patience I have other things to do.... and this is not on the top of my list ;)

[pk2]

Regarding the frozen stud - the other possible explanation is that corrosion is contributing to the bond between the stud and its hole - the uneven heating with a torch fractures this bond so that even if you wait until all is cool again you may find the stud has loosened.

Ya, that makes sense to, a little expansion and contraction to break things loose. I've done it myself several times and just don't remember it requiring much finesse, like trying to heat the bolt and not the block or vice vera. Maybe I'll find something to try it out on tomorrow.

PK

Edited September 13, 2009 by pk2

[JFP in PA]

Bosch says (about their spark plugs) "Nickel-plated rolled threads -- For complete anti-seize and corrosion protection".

Ah! So it did not come from Porsche, but from Bosch. As many of our clients do not use (or want) Bosch plugs; I still stand by my statement. And, in any case, using anti seize, even on Bosch plugs, does not cause any problems.....................it simply becomes a "belt & suspenders" application.

I'll find one from Porsche - have some patience I have other things to do.... and this is not on the top of my list ;)

Take your time, as I said, I've heard this before but have never seen any documentation to support it from Porsche, so I'm very interested to see what you turn up....