IMS Bearing

[bottinga]

Just had the IMS Bearing failure at idle, hope I caught it before it caused further damage.

What are the replacement bearing options other than LN Engineering retrofit that is looking very attractive?

2002 Boxster S with 44K miles

Can't believe that Porsche would design such a poor feature!

[txhokie4life]

Just had the IMS Bearing failure at idle, hope I caught it before it caused further damage.

What are the replacement bearing options other than LN Engineering retrofit that is looking very attractive?

2002 Boxster S with 44K miles

Can't believe that Porsche would design such a poor feature!

None that I am aware of -- just performed a retrofit last night.

Problem is -- did you do any other damage?

mike

[pk2]

Have a morbid , I guess, question. Had my car for years, read often about this curse, kinda understand what gives. But, how do you know it's happened. Is it just a blood curling crunching and thrashing about behind.

Is there any justifiable comfort to be had with a preemptive replacement?

Regards PK

[01vdpsc]

I just bought a carrera 4s. I was not aware of this issue until I joined the forum. I just got my car back today from the dealer after the transplant. If you look at the LN bearing design compared to OEM it just makes more sense. For me it was worth it for the piece of mind.

[txhokie4life]

The bearings are also ceramic -- so should be able to withstand higher heat and won't break down if the grease fails.

You should be able to combine the RMS, Clutch and IMS Retrofit for considerably less than a dealer would charge for the clutch alone at an independent shop

Mike

Edited September 4, 2009 by txhokie4life

[Beelzy]

Do the engines on the 2004 Boxsters still use the inferior IMS bearing?

I thought I read somewhere that it was improved upon by Porsche. I hope/wish? so.

[txhokie4life]

Do the engines on the 2004 Boxsters still use the inferior IMS bearing?

I thought I read somewhere that it was improved upon by Porsche. I hope/wish? so.

I have an 04 996 engine that was a remanufactured replacement built in 06 that has a single bearing.

mike

[flyingpenguin]

Do the engines on the 2004 Boxsters still use the inferior IMS bearing?

I thought I read somewhere that it was improved upon by Porsche. I hope/wish? so.

I have an 04 996 engine that was a remanufactured replacement built in 06 that has a single bearing.

mike

Mike, refresh my memory: single bearing equals good or bad?

Joost

Edited September 4, 2009 by jperquin

[70Sixter]

Just had the IMS Bearing failure at idle, hope I caught it before it caused further damage.

What are the replacement bearing options other than LN Engineering retrofit that is looking very attractive?

Jake Raby just quoted me $895 for the IMS upgrade. I'm going to do it as soon as I can afford it. He can do other work at same time. Not sure where you are located, but Flat6Innovations is in NE Georgia. He and Charles Navarro at LNE are both doing "God's Work" for M96s.

No affiliation. And....

:welcome:

Sorry the welcome aboard comes with an engine failure. Hope the "at idle" failure didn't cause any excess damage.

[Beelzy]

Alas, I reside on the West Coast......we need a Jake Raby Shop out here.

[pk2]

Jake Raby just quoted me $895 for the IMS upgrade...

Is that for the LN design, or something new and different?

Is either available to other mechanics, like whoever beelzy finds in central California? (I seem to recall some sort DYI about upgrading the thing somewhere)

ALSO, since we're not on the topic & maybe should be, on a another thread, there's a long discussion about how accurate the temp gauge is. without getting into any detail, at all (sorry, go read it, Just remember 986, shows last posts first) http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?...ge=2&pp=20). it's apparently not at all. when gauge is moving around within the number "180" it is actually running between 200 & 210.

I mention this because there's always rumbling about heat induced IMS failures.

The solution is apparently to replace stock 180f thermostat with one rated at 160...Which presumably runs the thing at a pretty constant 185. I'm kinda sold, because on 2000 (and Before) Box's and before, you manipulate your HVAC panel to give all sorts of temps around the car including engine temps. However , even though predictably the engine temps are much higher than the gauge, the feed still goes through Porsche circuitry, so, who do you believe, Porsche or Porsche.

But, I wonder why I have never heard of this before. I've always followed all the IMS disaster story posts and D chip stuff because I'm pushing the 'ell out my motor, and always looking a the diffintive explations and the fixs.

So, I think we could all benifit, By a show of posts,

1)You have a 160f degree thermostat?

2) Not heard of the issue.

2) Anyone who thinks it's bs and has a better tail to tell.

Regards, PK

Edited September 6, 2009 by pk2

[theitalianflip]

I have been reading about all the IMS scare. How hard is it to replace yourself, and where can I obtain the parts? Mike, how long did it take you?

[txhokie4life]

I have been reading about all the IMS scare. How hard is it to replace yourself, and where can I obtain the parts? Mike, how long did it take you?

Taking our time, pictures, and being very cautious it took us <2 hours.

We could have easily done it in <1hr.

We already had the engine on a stand so that makes it easier. Haven't tried it

with the engine in the car yet.

www.lnengineering.com to order.

m

[theitalianflip]

I have been reading about all the IMS scare. How hard is it to replace yourself, and where can I obtain the parts? Mike, how long did it take you?

Taking our time, pictures, and being very cautious it took us <2 hours.

We could have easily done it in <1hr.

We already had the engine on a stand so that makes it easier. Haven't tried it

with the engine in the car yet.

www.lnengineering.com to order.

m

So about an hour, plus taking the engine out and putting it back in. I guess thats not that bad. Now, I just bought a 2000 boxster with about 92,500 miles on it. Does it seem logical to do it on mine? I have noticed that it only happens to lower milage cars.

[Roger duRand]

Hi all---

I have the original '97 986--one of the first in the country, I think---VIN: WPOCA2986VS620460 with 72K miles and have never had a mechanical problem. Of course the convertible top mechanism self-destructed at 20K, and through several repairs and updated parts is now OK. Car has been maintained to near-showroom and dealer serviced---not a drop of oil dripped or burned.

Is there hard data regarding a relationship between IMS failure and any of the following factors: Mileage / Age / Occasional or sustained high revs / Single or double bearing design (which does mine have?) or any other observed anecdotal relationship?

I rarely exceed 5,000 RPM---never redline---out of caution, but I would like to use this car to its full potential with a clear conscience! After 13 years of collective experience with the 986, one would expect a significant collection and interpretation of this sort of data---or is it still a crapshoot?

Anybody?

Thanks!

Roger duRand

pca Great Plains Region

[artero]

Hi all---

I have the original '97 986--one of the first in the country, I think---VIN: WPOCA2986VS620460 with 72K miles and have never had a mechanical problem. Of course the convertible top mechanism self-destructed at 20K, and through several repairs and updated parts is now OK. Car has been maintained to near-showroom and dealer serviced---not a drop of oil dripped or burned.

Is there hard data regarding a relationship between IMS failure and any of the following factors: Mileage / Age / Occasional or sustained high revs / Single or double bearing design (which does mine have?) or any other observed anecdotal relationship?

I rarely exceed 5,000 RPM---never redline---out of caution, but I would like to use this car to its full potential with a clear conscience! After 13 years of collective experience with the 986, one would expect a significant collection and interpretation of this sort of data---or is it still a crapshoot?

Anybody?

Thanks!

Roger duRand

pca Great Plains Region

Hi Roger,

Just like you, I was worried about the IMS failure, so I recently upgraded to the LN Engineering IMS retrofit kit.

However, I must say that the old bearing (single row) in my car (2002 Targa, 70K Miles) seemed just fine, it was not worn at all and there was no play in it whatsoever. I also keep hearing that if your car made it to 70K miles, you should be fine. Finally, it amazes me to only hear people reporting IMS failures at idle or low revs. It almost seems as though the harder you drive that engine, the better it is for it, within limits ;-)

Peter

[pk2]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

[txhokie4life]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

Well those pics of the old vs new IMS was due to me dropping in a 55K miles 2.5L in a

92K mile 2.5L that had an IMS failure.

So YMMV, but I've seen up close and personal a 92K mile failure.

Mike

[Roger duRand]

Hi all---

I have the original '97 986--one of the first in the country, I think---VIN: WPOCA2986VS620460 with 72K miles and have never had a mechanical problem. Of course the convertible top mechanism self-destructed at 20K, and through several repairs and updated parts is now OK. Car has been maintained to near-showroom and dealer serviced---not a drop of oil dripped or burned.

Is there hard data regarding a relationship between IMS failure and any of the following factors: Mileage / Age / Occasional or sustained high revs / Single or double bearing design (which does mine have?) or any other observed anecdotal relationship?

I rarely exceed 5,000 RPM---never redline---out of caution, but I would like to use this car to its full potential with a clear conscience! After 13 years of collective experience with the 986, one would expect a significant collection and interpretation of this sort of data---or is it still a crapshoot?

Anybody?

Thanks!

Roger duRand

pca Great Plains Region

Hi Roger,

Just like you, I was worried about the IMS failure, so I recently upgraded to the LN Engineering IMS retrofit kit.

However, I must say that the old bearing (single row) in my car (2002 Targa, 70K Miles) seemed just fine, it was not worn at all and there was no play in it whatsoever. I also keep hearing that if your car made it to 70K miles, you should be fine. Finally, it amazes me to only hear people reporting IMS failures at idle or low revs. It almost seems as though the harder you drive that engine, the better it is for it, within limits ;-)

Peter

Thanks, Peter,

I, also, tend to think that if it will happen, it will happen earlier rather than later. Failures at 92K like Mike's must be quite rare. Wish there were better statistics available! Maybe I should "drive it like I stole it" and start putting money in a crate motor fund in case I'm unlucky!

Regards

RdR

[Roger duRand]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

Well those pics of the old vs new IMS was due to me dropping in a 55K miles 2.5L in a

92K mile 2.5L that had an IMS failure.

So YMMV, but I've seen up close and personal a 92K mile failure.

Mike

Mike--

Sincere condolences!

Just curious: what were the conditions at failure? Hard to believe the anecdotes of it occuring at idle!

RdR

[1schoir]

Just had the IMS Bearing failure at idle, hope I caught it before it caused further damage.

What are the replacement bearing options other than LN Engineering retrofit that is looking very attractive?

2002 Boxster S with 44K miles

Can't believe that Porsche would design such a poor feature!

Consider yourself "lucky" that you caught it at idle, especially if it did not cause any other damage to the engine!

Once you have the retrofit, it will be better than new and should give you peace of mind.

Regards, Maurice.

[txhokie4life]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

Well those pics of the old vs new IMS was due to me dropping in a 55K miles 2.5L in a

92K mile 2.5L that had an IMS failure.

So YMMV, but I've seen up close and personal a 92K mile failure.

Mike

Mike--

Sincere condolences!

Just curious: what were the conditions at failure? Hard to believe the anecdotes of it occuring at idle!

RdR

I bought the car with the IMS already gone -- so I really don't know.

I think a different poster (maybe named Mike) had one fail at idle.

We have not taken the engine that failed apart yet to see the internals -- but

the oil pan and filter were filled with metal sludge and specks/shards.

I'm sure when we do start pulling it apart -- it won't be pretty.

mike

[Roger duRand]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

Well those pics of the old vs new IMS was due to me dropping in a 55K miles 2.5L in a

92K mile 2.5L that had an IMS failure.

So YMMV, but I've seen up close and personal a 92K mile failure.

Mike

Mike--

Sincere condolences!

Just curious: what were the conditions at failure? Hard to believe the anecdotes of it occuring at idle!

RdR

I bought the car with the IMS already gone -- so I really don't know.

I think a different poster (maybe named Mike) had one fail at idle.

We have not taken the engine that failed apart yet to see the internals -- but

the oil pan and filter were filled with metal sludge and specks/shards.

I'm sure when we do start pulling it apart -- it won't be pretty.

mike

Anyone concerned with the IMS issue (who isn't!) should go to the excellent LN Engineering website: lnengineering.com. Some very capable guys have deeply explored the subject and engineered what, I am convinced, is a really good remedy. After reading their clear and complete exposition, you should have an understanding of the various factors contributing to these IMS failures.

As discussed in this forum, heat does seem to play a role in the rapid deterioration of the OEM inferior steel surfaces. Insufficient lubrication by the "lifetime" sealed grease, or by low viscosity crankcase oil (if IMS seal is removed), contribute to the problem. I was glad to finally get an answer to my query as to the effect of high revs on the likelihood of eventual failure, and to my surprise, it seems that raced engines have a markedly smaller number of problems with the IMS due to the creation of a more protective film of lubricant formed at higher revs. GOOD NEWS for spirited drivers! 'Garage queens' are more likely to experience failure, yes, even at idle!

The early single bearing, the subsequent double-race bearing, and the later beefier single all are prone to fail if the steel balls and races succumb to surface pitting, which seems to exacerbate itself, once formed. It seems that stress from unbalance or rotation speed are NOT an issue, nor are early chain-driven shafts compared to later gear-driven ones.

The LN retrofit utilizes ceramic surfaces to radically increase wearability and longevity of the bearing.

If you are having qualms about your particular car based on history, mileage, or driving style, I would suggest doing the preventative retrofit for cars out of warranty. It looks like about $1000 in all--- if you can find the right shop. Additionally, install a 160-degree thermostat (will run 180+-), switch to heavier synthetic oil, and rev it up!

Hope this is helpful-- do CHECK OUT THE LN SITE.

Regards,

Roger

[Roger duRand]

Rodger,

I was real nervous about these issues some time ago. The conclusions I came away with were;

1) *** peter said, the more milers you have, the less likely it is to be a problem. (and I was feeling so lucky to only have 35k) Apparently the magic number is around 40k. There are few broken hearts after that.

2) It would seems to have little to do whatsoever how you drive it, warm it up, etc. Happens to the nicest, caring & most consensus people in the world.

3) There is no hard data, only anecdotal. People have had to run poles and the like over the years but there’s no really accurate way to run a decent study. Porsche keeps a very tight lock on what must be the best evidence.

Regards, PK

Well those pics of the old vs new IMS was due to me dropping in a 55K miles 2.5L in a

92K mile 2.5L that had an IMS failure.

So YMMV, but I've seen up close and personal a 92K mile failure.

Mike

Mike--

Sincere condolences!

Just curious: what were the conditions at failure? Hard to believe the anecdotes of it occuring at idle!

RdR

I bought the car with the IMS already gone -- so I really don't know.

I think a different poster (maybe named Mike) had one fail at idle.

We have not taken the engine that failed apart yet to see the internals -- but

the oil pan and filter were filled with metal sludge and specks/shards.

I'm sure when we do start pulling it apart -- it won't be pretty.

mike

Anyone concerned with the IMS issue (who isn't!) should go to the excellent LN Engineering website: lnengineering.com. Some very capable guys have deeply explored the subject and engineered what, I am convinced, is a really good remedy. After reading their clear and complete exposition, you should have an understanding of the various factors contributing to these IMS failures.

As discussed in this forum, heat does seem to play a role in the rapid deterioration of the OEM inferior steel surfaces. Insufficient lubrication by the "lifetime" sealed grease, or by low viscosity crankcase oil (if IMS seal is removed), contribute to the problem. I was glad to finally get an answer to my query as to the effect of high revs on the likelihood of eventual failure, and to my surprise, it seems that raced engines have a markedly smaller number of problems with the IMS due to the creation of a more protective film of lubricant formed at higher revs. GOOD NEWS for spirited drivers! 'Garage queens' are more likely to experience failure, yes, even at idle!

The early single bearing, the subsequent double-race bearing, and the later beefier single all are prone to fail if the steel balls and races succumb to surface pitting, which seems to exacerbate itself, once formed. It seems that stress from unbalance or rotation speed are NOT an issue, nor are early chain-driven shafts compared to later gear-driven ones.

The LN retrofit utilizes ceramic surfaces to radically increase wearability and longevity of the bearing.

If you are having qualms about your particular car based on history, mileage, or driving style, I would suggest doing the preventative retrofit for cars out of warranty. It looks like about $1000 in all--- if you can find the right shop. Additionally, install a 160-degree thermostat (will run 180+-), switch to heavier synthetic oil, and rev it up!

Hope this is helpful-- do CHECK OUT THE LN SITE.

Regards,

Roger

Also MUST SEE: Jake Raby's site flat6innovations.com for the most comprehensive info on our engines.

[Falcon900EX]

Talk to Jake, at low RPM's their is a load on the bearing. At high RPM almost no load at all. So run the car RPM's in the mid to upper limits. The factory bearing is at design limits around 90 miles. The newer bearing made by Timken will last forever. Go to Flatsix website if you want the complete info. :clapping: My 911 will get the mod this spring. E