Help! What the heck happened now?

[phillipj]

:o Okay,

2000 C2 cab 996 with 3.6 conversion

So my nightmare with this Porsche continues. :angry: I was driving home last night and I came to a stoplight and I smelled gasoline. I thought it might be the car in front of me but it wasn't. My car began running rougher and then it died. I started it up again and had to keep it reved to keep it from dying.

I smelled gas even more. I finally got home (which was just a few blocks) and there was a trail of fuel on the ground. When I looked under the car it was coming from the left hand side (drivers side) of the engine just forward of the water pump.

I thought fuel pump? Seemed strange that it would keep running if the pump quit.. I just had the clutch replaced last Friday. Could they have damaged a fuel line when dropping the tranny? My car is very low.. Could I have ran over something that ruptured a fuel line? Where the heck are the fuel lines?

No codes or faults. Any suggestions? When a fuel pump fails doesn't it just quit? It seems unlikely that it would spray fuel on the ground. The 3.6 engine has less than 10k miles on it.

At at my wits end with this money pit. (my other Porsche was a dream..) :huh:

The car still starts and immediately starts dripping fuel. What should I look for or do?

I need you guys on this one..

Thanks,

Phillip

[RFM]

Start checking the fuel lines and connectors on the left side of the engine, besides/downwards the coolant tank above the left fuel rail. You can easily follow the fuel lines till the front of the car. Success.

[phillipj]

anyone have a PET diagram of the how the fuel lines go?

[JeTexas]

Look on the bright side. I had a 66 Mustang with a ruptured line between the front and rear fuel bowls. I started smelling gas as I was driving to dinner. While sitting at a stoplight someone slowed down to yell, "You're on fire!"

About the time they yelled that, the first flames jumped up through the crack in the hood. I got into a parking lot just in time to get out of the car and watch the entire front end burn to a crisp.

At least your Porsche isn't toasty!

[phillipj]

Yes that is true :D

I just can't figure out what would cause a fuel leak. Can anyone tell me what to look for (that might be the most obvious) once I get underneath the car tomorrow?

Has anyone had a similar situation?

Thanks !!

Edited August 7, 2009 by phillipj

[Dharn55]

Fuel pump is in the front in the tank, so that won't be the source. There are two connections to the fuel rail on the drivers side beneath the coolant tank. One is a 19MM nut, the other is a 17mm (or 15mm). One of these might have come loose. There is also a fuel filter above the engine on that side, might be a loose connection on it. Could also be a bad fuel line in this area. I am not sure if an injector could crack and leak, but that is also a possiblity.

Sorry to hear you are having so many problems with the conversion.

[phillipj]

I will check the items you mentioned. Thanks so much for your help. Do I have to remove anything in particular to get a good look at these areas?

Another question. I know that you rebuilt your engine and installed it. All of these fuel line connections need to be made when you put the engine in correct? So I'm thinking that when the tech put in the 3.6 he may not have done a proper job of attaching the fuel lines? Possible??

I'm thinking about shooting this car in the head B) and taking a complete loss on it. It is a money pit and I have been through this before with other cars. :angry: :cursing: It never stops.

Pretty soon my spending levels will be up around the cost for a 06 997 Carrera S. That's just wrong

[phillipj]

Loren,

You have a schematic of how the fuel lines are laid out on a 996?

Thanks

[Loren]

Sorry, there is only the breakdown of lines, injectors and fuel rails.

Besides you have a hybrid - the 3.6 liter engine uses a returnless fuel injection system. Your 3.4 liter had a return line - so perhaps when they did the conversion they left a line open or the plug came out.

I would check for leaks around the fuel rails and slowly work my way towards the front of the car following the fuel lines.

I have seen a couple of folks that managed to smash both fuel and clutch lines driving over a curb - so it might be wise to pout the car up on a rack and remove the underside panels so you can inspect all the lines for damage.

[Dharn55]

I did not realize that the 996 3.6 had a returnless fuel system, I thought this went into effect with the 997. Could be wrong as Loren has an incredible knowledge of these cars. I will try to take some pictures tomorrow and post them. On my car there are also fuel lines/connections to the AC compressor, for cooling the fuel. I was once told these were only on the TT's, but my car has them. However, they are on the top of the engine toward the passenger side, so it would not seem that the leak on the drivers side would be from these.

If the 3.6 does not have the return line then it would have hadd to be plugged, and the loss of this plug would be an obvious place for a leak.

[Dharn55]

I think Loren is right on the fuel lines. I checked my manual for the different instructions on removing the engine for a 3.4 and a 3.6 (MY 2002+). The 3.4 shows both the supply and return lines. The 3.6 shows only one line, must be a supply, and it is in a slightly different locations than mine were. I would post a picture from the manual but somehow my version of Adobe Reader won't let me cut and paste the pictures/diagrams, only the words. Didn't used to have the problem with an older version of Adobe, but have had it with the last few updates. Anyone know of a fix for this, then I could post the diagrams and pictures.

In any case, Roock must have plugged the return line so that is definetly the first place to look. Could be an easy fix. Good Luck!!

[phillipj]

Problem is I don't know where the return line is or even what it might look like. I took off the heat shield to get a look at the injectors. It seems the leak is coming from this injector. (see pic) Are these easy to replace? Why would it suddenly leak in the first place?

I have to have my wife turn the ignition one more time to see if that is what is spewing fuel. Seems strange that an injector would leak so badly.

I'll update in a little while

Edited August 8, 2009 by phillipj

[phillipj]

Dharn,

Okay I found where the fuel is coming from but there is no way I can get to it. It's not the injector... It's coming from the area above the injector in the photo. I can't see the actual source..

Its squirting a lot a fuel when I turn on the ignition so I guess it could be the plugged return line. I cant see it or get to it. I only know the area it's coming from. Any suggestions? Does the engine have to be dropped to get to it? :huh:

I looked from the engine bay and I don't see any way of getting to that area from above either.

What a freakin mess. Get back to me when you can.

Thanks

[phillipj]

Dharn,

Okay I found where the fuel is coming from but there is no way I can get to it. It's not the injector... It's coming from the area above the injector in the photo. I can't see the actual source..

Its squirting a lot a fuel when I turn on the ignition so I guess it could be the plugged return line. I cant see it or get to it. I only know the area it's coming from. Any suggestions? Does the engine have to be dropped to get to it? :huh:

I looked from the engine bay and I don't see any way of getting to that area from above either.

What a freakin mess. Get back to me when you can.

Thanks

I think I found the problem but I can't do anything about it. It appears the plugged return fuel line form the 3.4 set up is the culprit. Is the line about 1/2 inch in diameter and runs parallel to the injectors about 4 inches above them? This is what is leaking but I can't get to it. Even if I could i wouldn't know how to re- plug it.

They obviously did a shoddy job during the conversion. No suprise after all the other problems.

Can anyone give me some feedback on this?

Thanks

[Dharn55]

Phillp - I will take a look tomorrow when the light is better. You can get at the lines, but may need to do a couple of quick disconnects of some hoses and a plug connector on the vacumn switch in the area for better access. I am not sure which of the hoses is the return, the one with the larger nut (19mm) or the smaller one. It should not be too hard to make a plug, a hex plug with the proper thrad size and some good sealant should do the trick.

Will Roock give you any guidance on how they plugged the return line, they should. If it is the line you should be able to access it from the top.

If it turns out to be an injector instead, you might need to remove a the rear bumper, a muffler and some shields for better access.

Sorry I did not get the message until after dusk or I would have taken a look today.

[Dharn55]

Phillip – Took a look and some pictures this morning. Hope this will help.

In this picture of the engine compartment you can see the extension of the airbox that goes to the lid. This should be removed for better access. It snaps in and out of the airbox.

In this picture the extension has been removed and you can barely see the fuel lines/connections. For a better view and access you may want to disconnect the hose the air injection pump (at the end and push it aside), the electrical connection to the vacuum valve just above the alternator, and maybe even the coolant hose attached to the coolant reservoir neck. This will provide much better access.

The next two pictures are of the fuel line connections to the fuel rail. The one toward the rear of the car, closest in the pictures is the supply line (I believe). It runs from the fuel filter shown in the next picture, to the fuel rail, thus it would be the supply line. It is a 19mm nut. However, on a 3.6 I think the connection is in an entirely different area, above this (based on the diagram in the manual). The connection toward the front of the car is the return. This is the one that should be plugged. It is a 17mm nut. It would seem that a hex plug in the appropriate size, with some good sealant would take care of this. Now Roock may have relocated this line. Don’t really know. The line goes toward the rear of the car and I think it connects to a rigid line to the front of the car behind the air injection pump. I can’t really see or feel it on my car, would have to remove the injection pump, but I can kind of see the rigid line in there. Roock may also have removed the flexible line back to the rigid line connection and plugged it there, but if this is the case the leak should be appearing over to the left of the picture, behind the injection pump. This might also be a good place for you to plug the line if you need to.

Here is a picture of the fuel filter. The line you see coming out toward the rear of the car is the supply line. On a 3.4 in just loops around and connects to the rear connection on the fuel rail. If you trace this line on your car you should be able to see where it is now connected on your 3.6.

Hope this will help.

[cakasa]

Phillip – Took a look and some pictures this morning. Hope this will help.

In this picture of the engine compartment you can see the extension of the airbox that goes to the lid. This should be removed for better access. It snaps in and out of the airbox.

In this picture the extension has been removed and you can barely see the fuel lines/connections. For a better view and access you may want to disconnect the hose the air injection pump (at the end and push it aside), the electrical connection to the vacuum valve just above the alternator, and maybe even the coolant hose attached to the coolant reservoir neck. This will provide much better access.

The next two pictures are of the fuel line connections to the fuel rail. The one toward the rear of the car, closest in the pictures is the supply line (I believe). It runs from the fuel filter shown in the next picture, to the fuel rail, thus it would be the supply line. It is a 19mm nut. However, on a 3.6 I think the connection is in an entirely different area, above this (based on the diagram in the manual). The connection toward the front of the car is the return. This is the one that should be plugged. It is a 17mm nut. It would seem that a hex plug in the appropriate size, with some good sealant would take care of this. Now Roock may have relocated this line. Don’t really know. The line goes toward the rear of the car and I think it connects to a rigid line to the front of the car behind the air injection pump. I can’t really see or feel it on my car, would have to remove the injection pump, but I can kind of see the rigid line in there. Roock may also have removed the flexible line back to the rigid line connection and plugged it there, but if this is the case the leak should be appearing over to the left of the picture, behind the injection pump. This might also be a good place for you to plug the line if you need to.

Here is a picture of the fuel filter. The line you see coming out toward the rear of the car is the supply line. On a 3.4 in just loops around and connects to the rear connection on the fuel rail. If you trace this line on your car you should be able to see where it is now connected on your 3.6.

Hope this will help.

Good job 'Dharn55' ... Although I have not experienced this problem (yet). I saved your instructions and pixs. You never know. Thanks for taking the time & effort to lend a helping hand. YOU GET THE LOREN AWARD FOR THE MONTH. :clapping:

Edited August 9, 2009 by cakasa

[phillipj]

Dharn,

You are the best. i owe you one. Roock will not give me any information. He says it's not his fault (nothing is ever his fault.) He doesn't accept incoming calls on his cell so he must have a lot of people that want to kill him. I have been duped by this guy and I feel very stupid. :cursing:

Please warn others about this guy. He is bad news... :help:

I will take the car to my mechanic that did my clutch two weeks agao. Roock says they are responsible because they put stress on the fuel lines when the did the clutch. I had to do the clutch because Roock's tech (that installed my engine) put the clutch disk in backwards. :(

I will have the car towed tomorrow. May be I should take a huge loss and donate this car and get a Ford Focus. I'm exhauseted from it :soapbox:

[Dharn55]

Hang in there guy, it may be a simple fix. I am really sorry to hear about all your problems with Roock, I know there have been other members that have had the conversion done and it seemed to go smoother. I think they were done in his shop in Atlanta though. I think one problem may be that you are so remote that it is hard/expensive for Roock to deal with these follow-up problems and work out the bugs. But he did take on the project in LA and should have committed to the follow-up.

He should take more ownership for the issues you have faced. There is no way that dropping the engine, or just the trans for a clutch change should effect the fuel lines. If the trans is dropped there is no impact on the fuel lines. If the engine is dropped, the fuel lines are disconnected, so it should not have an impact unless they are not reconnected properly. And in your case, if it is the return line that was "plugged" there should not be a problem at all.

As for the clutch, it is hard to tell which side is which. I know that when I did mine I kept close track of the side, but even then when I put it back together I worried if I had it right, and looked in the manual to see if there were any disgrams or hints, but could not find any. Fortunately I got it right. You would think that his tech would have enough experience to know the difference.

Don't take the $4,500 cash for clunkers, shoot I bet the are alot of members that would do alot better than that (just kidding).

[Dharn55]

By the way, I think you should do a story of your experience and post it here, on Rennlist and 6speedonline, this is very useful information for all of us owners. But try to be as unemotional as possible, the more objective you are the more impact it will have. Maybe Roock will even step up to the plate on the issues if he knows he is getting bad PR.

[phillipj]

No excuse for the disk... It was a sprung disk and any tech worth his salt knows which way it goes. And if you're not sure make a freakin phone call. The guy is supposed to be a Porsche "tuner" not mechanic at Sears.

They also punctured a hole in my canvas top :angry: and broke my center console storage lid hinge. What else..... Didn't tighten an exhaust tip.. I noticed it was crooked and realized it was ready to fall off becuase it had never been tightened. Left tools and utility knife in engine compartment... It goes on and on...

:angry: :angry:

Car is at the mechanic now. I will post the entire Roock tale and it won't be emotional. Another member her is going through a similar nightmare and I will get him to post his experience as well.

I understand the distance problem. But that really hasn't been the issue.

Thanks again for all of your help

Edited August 10, 2009 by phillipj

[phillipj]

No excuse for the disk... It was a sprung disk and any tech worth his salt knows which way it goes. And if you're not sure make a freakin phone call. The guy is supposed to be a Porsche "tuner" not mechanic at Sears.

They also punctured a hole in my canvas top :angry: and broke my center console storage lid hinge. What else..... Didn't tighten an exhaust tip.. I noticed it was crooked and realized it was ready to fall off becuase it had never been tightened. Left tools and utility knife in engine compartment... It goes on and on...

:angry: :angry:

Car is at the mechanic now. I will post the entire Roock tale and it won't be emotional. Another member her is going through a similar nightmare and I will get him to post his experience as well.

I understand the distance problem. But that really hasn't been the issue.

Thanks again for all of your help

Oh yeah,

Here is Fabians reply when I told him that his coversion had a fuel leak.....

Dear Phillip,

I cannot tell you what is happening with your car but I have the feeling that something went wrong at the last repair.You just point the finger at us without any proof. that's not ok and you know that.

At this point I believe that the engine harness and the fuel lines came under stress when doing the clutch.

Just ask around and you find it out that the engine was not careful supported and load was put on the harness and fuel lines.

there are two extra cable running from the ecu to the engine. this cable will be apart. once back connected the car will drive much better.

Fabian Roock