Clutch Confusion

[03BoxsterS]

I have an '03 Boxster S purchased used in April 2006 with 9600 miles. It had two previous owners. I had it checked by a reputable Porsche dealer and they replaced the RMS, under warranty, prior to the sale. Other than that it got a clean bill of health. I've driven it as a daily driver 6 months out of the year, 3 DEs, about 4 auto-x per summer, and it now has 22,200 miles on it.

I recently bled the brakes and was going to do the clutch line, but had trouble locating it. I also don't have a very safe way to lift the car, so I elected to take it to the local independent shop for the clutch line bleed and tranny oil replacement. I have taken my car there before, and they have a great reputation.

The mechanic called me and asked if there was a specific reason for bleeding the clutch line, and I told him just regular maintenance. He said my clutch was very heavy, and likely had a broken release spring (not sure if that's the exact part, but something like that), and I should replace the entire clutch and flywheel. He said it was a $3 part, but it was likely the clutch was worn also and I should replace everything while they were in there. The cost I was quoted was $1,000 parts, $1,000 labor (eight hours of work). That's Canadian dollars, so translates to about $1,800 US at todays exchange rate.

I have never noticed the clutch slipping. The tranny shifts like a hot knife through butter. I didn't notice the clutch being heavy either, but if it happened gradually I suppose I wouldn't. I have never in my life worn out a clutch, and I've driven plenty of manuals. I don't rest my foot on the clutch.

So.....I'm looking for some comments from you clutch experts out there. Does this seem reasonable? What would you do? If I elect to replace the clutch, should I replace the flywheel also? Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin

[blundgren77]

The mechanic called me and asked if there was a specific reason for bleeding the clutch line, and I told him just regular maintenance. He said my clutch was very heavy, and likely had a broken release spring (not sure if that's the exact part, but something like that), and I should replace the entire clutch and flywheel. He said it was a $3 part, but it was likely the clutch was worn also and I should replace everything while they were in there. The cost I was quoted was $1,000 parts, $1,000 labor (eight hours of work). That's Canadian dollars, so translates to about $1,800 US at todays exchange rate.

Wow! I'm certainly no expert, but I think getting a qualified second opinion if definately in order. From an engineer's perspective, how does this mechanic quantify "heavy"? Has the guy worked on a Porsche before? Where is the evidence that this is a problem? Did they take anything apart, visibly see anything, or anything else? Or is he subscribing to the Johnny Carson "Carnack" method of clutch repair? ;-) Having to replace the flywheel after 22K miles seems really bizzare.

Provided you haven't done anything crazy (and it sounds like the car shifts fine so that isn't likely), replacing the flywheel might be a little drastic, as well as the clutch. When replacing the clutch, I've always been told to inspect the flywheel and if it's scored or there is lots of wear, to have it checked, and possibly resurfaced so that the new clutch seats properly. I've never known anyone who actually replaced the flywheel during a clutch replacement, unless they really burned one bad or had something mechanically wrong, or they've replaced the clutch so many times, the flywheel just isn't meeting spec anymore.

I'd seek out someone else to flush the clutch cyl for you, and get a second opinion. Perhaps not even mentioning anything about a "heavy" clutch and see if another indy makes the came comment/recommendation.

[kbrandsma]

I have a 98, 2.5 liter, 5 speed Boxster and replaced the RMS two winters ago (Januuary 2008) with about 58K on the clock. When I had everything apart I replaced the clutch. The dual mass flywheel (DMF) was still in excellent shape and choose not to replace it. I figured it would make it another 60K. I think I would only bleed the clutch and wait until more definate signs appear. A new clutch is cheap $350 compared to labor ($1,500) and the DMF is another $900+.

Good luck!

[03BoxsterS]

blundgren, thanks for the reply. The shop does have a good reputation and I believe these guys know what they are doing in general, but I was a bit surprised by this diagnosis. I think I will get a second opinion - this is too much money not to. Thanks for your comments.

Kevin

[03BoxsterS]

kbrandsma, thanks for the info on the flywheel. I take it from your reply that the clutch does not have to be "matched" to the flywheel - you can replace one or the other at any time?

Kevin

[kbrandsma]

Yes, they can be replaced separately. However, once you remove the exhaust, axles, drop the tranny and get to everything, you should do what is reasonably necessary. That could mean the DMF as well. You really don't know until then. While I had everything apart, I also replaced my O2 sensors and my AOS figuring that 60K was a safe bet they needed replacing. Not that you need to drop the tranny to change the AOS, but it did make it very simple to do so.

[artster]

I just replaced my clutch on my '03 986S - my mechanic also told me it was "heavy" - but to prove the point, he had me sit in a 996 that was in the shop with a brand new clutch. The difference was amazing, but at the time, I passed, since I wasn't overly concerned with a heavy clutch, and decided to wait until the clutch started to show signs of slipping (I was at 65k, driven by me for the most recent 20k). Within two weeks, the clutch was slipping, and I had it replaced.

[CarreraLicious]

I would wait until you actually feel the clutch slipping. My dealer told me at my 30k mile service that I needed a new clutch because my pedal was heavy. I opted to wait because I never abused my clutch and my other car's clutches always lasted me more than 100k miles. My car is now at 59k miles, and the clutch still works perfectly fine.

[03BoxsterS]

Thanks boxstaboy and artster, interesting and helpful feedback. This is what I have done: I picked up the car and took it for a second opinion. This shop was recommended by a PCA friend that had used them before and liked their work. They took it for a drive, did a quick no-cost assessment and also let me sit in a few other Porsches with good clutches and work the pedal.

They did think there was a problem with the clutch, but said it wasn't an emergency situation (the other guys said I could blow up the tranny at an auto-x). They noted the heavy pedal, and said they could detect a minor amount of slipping. After having worked a few clutch pedals in other cars, I agree mine is definitely heavy (my wife has always said it was heavy but she's a girl). They gave me a quote that was 25% lower than the first shop. I asked if they would allow me to purchase the parts myself to save a few more $$, and they were agreeable to working something out. I'll buy the parts, and they may charge a little extra time to make up for their lost profit on the parts. In the end, I think I'll come out about 40% cheaper than the quote from the first shop.

Based on the lower cost, and the fact that all the information the second shop gave me fit exactly with what I've read here, I will have the second shop do the work. Maybe not right away, as they told me with some care it could last up to another 6-12 months. They also said there was no problem with an auto-x or two as long as I was careful.

Bottom line, with some good advice from you guys and a little research I'll save enough money to add some new springs or a short shifter or some other toy/gadget........

Thanks,

Kevin

[03BoxsterS]

Ordered a Porsche clutch kit from Carlsen Porsche in San Fran for $429 US. Lowest price I could find other than the Sachs kit, which is $360 at several online places. Since I'm providing the parts, I elected to go with the actual Porsche part just for insurance.

Kevin

[03BoxsterS]

Carlsen called back, said they gave me the quote for the pressure plate only, full kit is over $800. Looks like it'll be a Sachs.......

[03BoxsterS]

Ok, so the Sachs clutch kit is in, I've arranged to have it replaced by an indy shop next Tues. Got a decent price (for this area, anyway) and the guys seem ok. I haven't used them before, and the only thing that's bothering me is they talked a LOT about replacing the flywheel. They asked if the clutch was slipping, and I said a little, mostly it was just a hard pedal. They said if it was slipping most likely they would have to replace the flywheel.

So here's the questions: How do I know if these guys are being straight with me? What do I do if they call me in the middle of the repair and tell me the flywheel is shot and my bill is tripled? Is there a sure-fire way to tell if a flywheel is gone? Also, they said the dual mass flywheel could not be polished or resurfaced. Is that true?

Thanks

Clutch-less & Clue-less

[phillipj]

It's true that the OEM Dual Mass flywheel cannot be resurfaced. But I find it highly unlikely that you would need to replace it after only 9600 miles. My old 996 had 69k miles on the original clutch and it still wasn't slipping.

Unless you (or the previous owners) abused the clutch beware of mechanics who want to replace everything. They (the bad ones) count on Porsche owners being complacent and ignorant.

Edited July 24, 2009 by phillipj

[03BoxsterS]

Hi phillip, actually it had 9600 miles on it when I bought it in 2006, now it has about 22,000 miles on it. Thanks for the info on the DMF. I did not abuse the clutch, but the clutch pedal has always taken a lot of effort to push down, even when I first got it. To be fair, the indy I talked to on the phone is not aware of the mileage, so maybe he'll change his tune once he has a look. But I need to be prepared for the worst here, and that means as much knowledge as possible.

Clutch experts, please help!

[Paul Fraser]

I would suggest that they may just be preparing you for the possibility of replacing the flywheel rather than actually planning to do it. When I had mine in for a clutch change (996 with 36000 miles that was getting an RMS done so I elected to do the clutch at the same time) I asked if it would need a new flywheel and they sensibly said they would let me know when they could see what the current one was like. Maybe your garage doesn't want the car blocking one of the slots in the garage while they wait for a flywheel to be delivered, if it needs one...

[Bill_SoCal]

My '03 has 149,000 miles with the original clutch. I lost my AOS at 146,000 miles (the ONLY engine component to ever fail since I drove it off the lot new) and thought for sure I had blown the engine...anyway, the dealer replaced the AOS and I noticed the RMS was leaving some drips on my driveway. The Service Manager at my dealership (well qualified...he's been at it since pre water cooled) told me this is normal due to the intense vacuum created when AOS failure occurs. I suggested that I bring the vehicle in and have the RMS replaced since it was leaking and replace the clutch as well since it was the clutch from the factory. He told me not to bother unless the oil drips got excessive and they were bothering me. When I asked about the clutch, I was told not to even bother until the clutch started slipping.

At 149,000 miles, pedal feels great and the clutch still grabs like new when I drive it like I just stole it (which is often). I've had nothing but great success with this daily driver. I drive one of the most intense highways in SoCal each and everyday to my office, which is the Ortega Highway. The Ortega is well know for sport bike and performance car enthusiasts alike...I'm just fortunate to need to get to my office through this mountain pass.

If I decided I did want to have the RMS and clutch replaced, it would be about $2K. I'll have it done when the clutch starts slipping. I've never had flywheel replacement come up in any conversation. Believe it or not, the RMS stopped leaving a spot on the garage as well.

All the best,

Bill :beer:

[03BoxsterS]

Well, the deed was done today. Clutch and flywheel replaced, as the mechanic said the flywheel had "hot spots" and a small groove in it. I could see the mottled, darker areas he called hot spots, but had a hard time seeing the groove. I've attached some pictures, I'm interested in any comments on the condition of the flywheel, since this is the first Boxster flywheel I've seen (also first one I've ever had to replace in a car). Also thought other folks could have a look and see what a clutch/flywheel with 22,000 miles looks like, maybe learn something from it.

The new clutch and flywheel feel great, I just about put the clutch pedal through the floorboards when I pushed on it the first time. Gives you an indication of how hard the old one was. The guys in the shop seemed to know what they were doing, and the mechanic seemed on top of things. There is this nagging pain in my wallet that hopefully time and several paychecks will make better.

Have a look at these pictures and let me know what you think.

Thanks

[Bill_SoCal]

Well, the deed was done today. Clutch and flywheel replaced, as the mechanic said the flywheel had "hot spots" and a small groove in it. I could see the mottled, darker areas he called hot spots, but had a hard time seeing the groove. I've attached some pictures, I'm interested in any comments on the condition of the flywheel, since this is the first Boxster flywheel I've seen (also first one I've ever had to replace in a car). Also thought other folks could have a look and see what a clutch/flywheel with 22,000 miles looks like, maybe learn something from it.

The new clutch and flywheel feel great, I just about put the clutch pedal through the floorboards when I pushed on it the first time. Gives you an indication of how hard the old one was. The guys in the shop seemed to know what they were doing, and the mechanic seemed on top of things. There is this nagging pain in my wallet that hopefully time and several paychecks will make better.

Have a look at these pictures and let me know what you think.

Thanks

I'm certainly not a clutch expert...but I have spent many my fair share of replacing VW clutches in my pre-college days. Seems like every time I had a RMS develop a leak (which was fairly often for me back in those days), it was time to disconnect the electrical, plug the fuel line with a screw, unhook the accelerator cable, remove the (4) 17mm engine to trans axle bolts and drop that bad boy on a skateboard to slide out from under the car...

That being said, those days are long gone...

How was your pressure plate? You don't mention that at all. My past experience with hard clutch pedals has been pressure plate related. Did the replace that? Your flywheel doesn't look any different than ones I've seen in the past and your clutch looks like it had lots of life left based on how the rivet depth looks still...again not an expert. I would think you has a pressure plate issue. Did you get a new release lever, throwout bearing, and retaining spring new as well? If you don't mind letting us know, what did the final price end up being for your clutch job?

I'm at 149,257 as of today with the original clutch and still going strong...

All the best,

Bill :beer:

BTW - My Boxster, unlike my VW days, will definitely go to the shop when it's ready for a clutch.

[03BoxsterS]

1. How was your pressure plate? You don't mention that at all. My past experience with hard clutch pedals has been pressure plate related. Did the replace that?

2. Your flywheel doesn't look any different than ones I've seen in the past and your clutch looks like it had lots of life left based on how the rivet depth looks still...again not an expert. I would think you has a pressure plate issue.

3. Did you get a new release lever, throwout bearing, and retaining spring new as well?

4. If you don't mind letting us know, what did the final price end up being for your clutch job?

5. I'm at 149,257 as of today with the original clutch and still going strong...

Bill, thanks for your reply and questions. I'll answer them as best I can, but this is the first used clutch I've ever seen, and I don't know much about them. For all I know, I'm a poster child for how not to do this.

1. I bought a Sachs clutch kit including: 996 116 027 06 Pressure Plate, 986 116 013 00 Clutch Disc, 996 116 080 04 Release Bearing. So if it was a pressure plate I should be in good shape now. The mechanic never mentioned the pressure plate, so I didn't pay much attention to it. Based on your comments, I will call him and ask about this. If it was the pressure plate, you still have to rip everything apart to get to it, so I'm ok with replacing the clutch and throwout bearing at the same time.

2. The clutch certainly wasn't worn down to the rivets, but it had some marks and grooves on it, some are visible in the picture. What does this mean? Dunno.

3. See #1 above.

4. First, you have to realize these are Canadian prices, except for the clutch kit. I'm sure you are familiar with the US slogan "Land of the Free". Well in Canada you can remove one letter and get "Land of the Fee", and it is a very good description of how consumers are treated up here. I will share these costs but just so you know I am not happy with the total. I'm sure you can do much better in the US, unless you go to the dealer.

a. Sachs Clutch Kit $318 US plus shipping

b. 6 hours labor $650 Can

c. LUK flywheel $1050 Can. I would have ordered this from the US also, but it was basically a decision you have to make on the fly as the work is being done. I didn't think I would need one, but the mechanic said it was absolutely necessary. So I agreed to have it replaced. Yes, I'm having second thoughts about this. I figure in the end the damage was about $1850 US or $2050 Can, for which I got a clutch kit, flywheel, and 6 hours labor. Not rock bottom prices, but not to bad if I really needed the flywheel.

5. Most likely you do a lot of freeway driving in SoCal. In my daily driving in Calgary, it is mostly stop and go, as there really are no freeways here. But congrats on getting the most from your car (ok, I am gritting my teeth a little here :D ).

[03BoxsterS]

Just to follow up.......I have discussed this with multiple intelligent people that understand clutches and flywheels, and concluded that I most likely did not need the flywheel. Positives are I have a new clutch and flywheel that work great, as well as a used flywheel that can be put back in another car at some point.:clapping: Negatives are I paid about twice what I should have.:censored:

How did this happen? I think it boils down to how the mechanics working in the shops are compensated. I think more independent shops, at least in my area, are compensating their mechanics via commissions, which accounts for the aggressive behavior I encountered when looking for help.

I would be interested in comments from other members regarding if they are seeing the same thing, and how to deal with it. I'm not in a position to work on my car myself every time I need work done, which means I will need to continue to take it somewhere. Comments?

03BoxsterS