Intermediate shaft failure

[fudgiewhale]

Hi Guys

Well, the worst case happened- I stalled, and when I re-started the car (2001 Boxster S) my engine sounded like there were loose rocks tumbling around in it. At that very moment a flatbed tow truck pulled up next to me, so I hired him to take my baby to Don Rosen here in eastern PA. The verdict- intermediate shaft failure. I was informed that there was oil present in the engine box, and that the oil was infused with metal particles. The remedy- a new engine!

The quote I got from the dealer works out to be around 17k with tax. My plan is to park the car for about a year while I sell enough blood to pay for the replacement. I'm already sure that I want to go with a Porsche re-built and crated motor, as they come with the 2 year warranty. Since I have some time to plan the repair, I want to make sure I do this right. My question for you fine Porsche enthusiasts is this- is getting the new engine through, and installed by, a dealer the best way to go? Can I get the same quality and warranty with a less expensive install? Don't get me wrong- I have no desire to sacrifice quality or reliability just to save a few bucks, but I know there must be other options out there. Anyone care to weigh-in?

Thanks,

Fudgie

[jmatta]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

[1schoir]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

For the money the dealer is quoting you, +1 on the Raby solution.

Regards, Maurice.

[Dharn55]

Look at Raby's article on the IMS bearing replacement. If you stopped the engine soon enough it might be savable. Porsche always says you need a new engine but it is not always the case. I had an intermix, Porsche said new engie. Found out it was a cracked head and fixed it. Porsche does not want owners to know what went wrong with their engine or why, they have been hiding from these problems for along time, and it is much more profitable for them to sell you a "new" engine than fix one.

[70Sixter]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

For the money the dealer is quoting you, +1 on the Raby solution.

Regards, Maurice.

++2 Raby can upgrade and increase displacement in a stock appearing engine.

And your numbers will match if that matters to you. It definitely does to me.I

f you do not know, Jake is a long-time hero in the 914/TypeIV community and has been for years. They (Type IVers) say he has gone to the dark side with his water cooled work. I say welcome to Water World, Jake!!!!!!!!!!

No affiliation, just admiration. :D

[fudgiewhale]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

Jmatta, I appreciate your input. I have already emailed Jake. His site was a little glitchy, some bad links and such, but I think my message got through. Thanks again!!

Fudgie

[fudgiewhale]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

For the money the dealer is quoting you, +1 on the Raby solution.

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks Maurice!

[fudgiewhale]

Why would you purchase another Porsche engine filled with design flaws that may only grenade again?

My money would be on Jake Raby... http://www.flat6innovations.com/

For the money the dealer is quoting you, +1 on the Raby solution.

Regards, Maurice.

++2 Raby can upgrade and increase displacement in a stock appearing engine.

And your numbers will match if that matters to you. It definitely does to me.I

f you do not know, Jake is a long-time hero in the 914/TypeIV community and has been for years. They (Type IVers) say he has gone to the dark side with his water cooled work. I say welcome to Water World, Jake!!!!!!!!!!

No affiliation, just admiration. :D

Well, it seems that ol' Jake has built quite a reputation in these circles. You have my gratitude for the advice.

[fudgiewhale]

Look at Raby's article on the IMS bearing replacement. If you stopped the engine soon enough it might be savable. Porsche always says you need a new engine but it is not always the case. I had an intermix, Porsche said new engie. Found out it was a cracked head and fixed it. Porsche does not want owners to know what went wrong with their engine or why, they have been hiding from these problems for along time, and it is much more profitable for them to sell you a "new" engine than fix one.

Hi Dharn55! I will absolutely look for the article. It could mean the difference between enjoying the car this summer or having to wait until next year. Stay safe and have fun!

Fudgie

[larez2]

I'm sorry to hear about your car; i hope you are able to get a quick and suitable resolution quickly... How many miles were on the engine?

$17k sounds like an awful lot, but certainly is not a bad option if you are willing to spend the money.... though I have seen 2001 and new boxster S's selling for less than $17k... what about using an engine from a wrecked boxster S and puting in Raby's IMS upgrade? Could be a LOT cheaper.

good luck

[GranburyChuck]

I thought Jake's work was on hold because of recurring cracked heads in the M96 engines and he hasn't addressed that yet. At least I thought I read that somewhere...

[fudgiewhale]

I'm sorry to hear about your car; i hope you are able to get a quick and suitable resolution quickly... How many miles were on the engine?

$17k sounds like an awful lot, but certainly is not a bad option if you are willing to spend the money.... though I have seen 2001 and new boxster S's selling for less than $17k... what about using an engine from a wrecked boxster S and puting in Raby's IMS upgrade? Could be a LOT cheaper.

good luck

Thanks Larez2, I appreciate your sympathy. I do realize that I could probably get another S with similar mileage to the one I bought (57,245 when I got it two months ago) for what the replacement engine would cost, but I worry that I might end up with two beautiful cars and no good motors... at least with the Porsche-rebuilt hamster wheel I get a two-year unlimited warranty. I just don't know yet if the RMS (I assume that's for "rear main seal") and IMS issues have been addressed on the replacement engines. I'm waiting for a reply from Jake Raby or his people to see what options they suggest. I'll update the thread when I make a decision.

Thanks again and God bless,

Fudgie ;)

[KevinC]

I was in a similar situation last summer - IMS failure in my 2000 Boxster S; PCNA declined to help despite two previous defective engines; high initial quote from dealer. I wasn't aware of the work of Jake Raby at that time, so it seemed that my options were either a junkyard engine or a new engine from my dealer. I didn't want to take the chance with the junkyard engine, especially since I heard that the dealer engine would have updates to the IMS and other problem components.

I wasn't happy with the dealer quote, so I investigated sourcing the engine from Sunset Porsche in Oregon (I'm in CA) and having a good local mechanic install it. Sunset's price for the engine was thousands less than my dealer's. (I believe the number was $8900.) I would have to pay to get it shipped and would also have to pay for shipping the old "core" back to them. However, the shipping costs (about $400 each way) were offset by the fact that I wouldn't have to pay sales tax on the engine purchased out of state. I got a quote of $2000 for installation by a very good independent Porsche mechanic.

Armed with this info, I was able to get a much more reasonable quote from my dealer. I paid just under $13K which included a new clutch, various fluids and sales tax. Fortunately, I had resisted the urging of my dealer to allow them to start tearing the car down for inspection. That would have made it expensive to pull the car out of the dealership.

You might be able to put together a similar competitive quote for your dealer by sourcing the new engine from someone on the east coast like Suncoast Porsche in Florida. I even found that the parts department at another local dealership happily offered me my standard 10% PCA parts discount on the engine. You can also hit your dealer with the cost of installing a used engine which should be about half the number they quoted you.

Bottom line - $17K is much too high. In these times, your dealership should be willing to make a more reasonable offer to keep your business.

[blue2000s]

Hi Guys

Well, the worst case happened- I stalled, and when I re-started the car (2001 Boxster S) my engine sounded like there were loose rocks tumbling around in it. At that very moment a flatbed tow truck pulled up next to me, so I hired him to take my baby to Don Rosen here in eastern PA. The verdict- intermediate shaft failure. I was informed that there was oil present in the engine box, and that the oil was infused with metal particles. The remedy- a new engine!

The quote I got from the dealer works out to be around 17k with tax. My plan is to park the car for about a year while I sell enough blood to pay for the replacement. I'm already sure that I want to go with a Porsche re-built and crated motor, as they come with the 2 year warranty. Since I have some time to plan the repair, I want to make sure I do this right. My question for you fine Porsche enthusiasts is this- is getting the new engine through, and installed by, a dealer the best way to go? Can I get the same quality and warranty with a less expensive install? Don't get me wrong- I have no desire to sacrifice quality or reliability just to save a few bucks, but I know there must be other options out there. Anyone care to weigh-in?

Thanks,

Fudgie

That must have been pretty heart breaking. You have my sympathy. It seems that IMS failures occur under low speed, low stress conditions, like driving in traffic or starting off from a stop light. Do you mind sharing what you were doing when the engine failed?

[1schoir]

Hi Guys

Well, the worst case happened- I stalled, and when I re-started the car (2001 Boxster S) my engine sounded like there were loose rocks tumbling around in it. At that very moment a flatbed tow truck pulled up next to me, so I hired him to take my baby to Don Rosen here in eastern PA. The verdict- intermediate shaft failure. I was informed that there was oil present in the engine box, and that the oil was infused with metal particles. The remedy- a new engine!

The quote I got from the dealer works out to be around 17k with tax. My plan is to park the car for about a year while I sell enough blood to pay for the replacement. I'm already sure that I want to go with a Porsche re-built and crated motor, as they come with the 2 year warranty. Since I have some time to plan the repair, I want to make sure I do this right. My question for you fine Porsche enthusiasts is this- is getting the new engine through, and installed by, a dealer the best way to go? Can I get the same quality and warranty with a less expensive install? Don't get me wrong- I have no desire to sacrifice quality or reliability just to save a few bucks, but I know there must be other options out there. Anyone care to weigh-in?

Thanks,

Fudgie

That must have been pretty heart breaking. You have my sympathy. It seems that IMS failures occur under low speed, low stress conditions, like driving in traffic or starting off from a stop light. Do you mind sharing what you were doing when the engine failed?

blue2000s:

From Fudgie's first post in this thread: "... I stalled, and when I re-started the car (2001 Boxster S) my engine sounded like there were loose rocks tumbling around in it...."

It sounds similar to some of the other IMS failures posted here and on other threads, i.e., not racing or high revs, etc...

Regards, Maurice.

[RFM]

IMS failures occurs mostly under low revs by the irregular torque of the camshafts, the pressure cam>valve spring in pressed state (and the related time during the pressed state, idle=long - max.revs.=short) is high and irregularly distributed on the shafts by the engine fire order. A crankshaft will turn smoothly by hand in a short block (cyl.heads and timing chains removed) cyl.heads with camshafts installed (on the bench) are a lot more difficult to manipulate, the camshafts will jump away all of the time. Older 924/928/944/964 timing belt failures occurred for the same reason mostly at low revs.

[txhokie4life]

I was in a similar situation last summer - IMS failure in my 2000 Boxster S; PCNA declined to help despite two previous defective engines; high initial quote from dealer. I wasn't aware of the work of Jake Raby at that time, so it seemed that my options were either a junkyard engine or a new engine from my dealer. I didn't want to take the chance with the junkyard engine, especially since I heard that the dealer engine would have updates to the IMS and other problem components.

I wasn't happy with the dealer quote, so I investigated sourcing the engine from Sunset Porsche in Oregon (I'm in CA) and having a good local mechanic install it. Sunset's price for the engine was thousands less than my dealer's. (I believe the number was $8900.) I would have to pay to get it shipped and would also have to pay for shipping the old "core" back to them. However, the shipping costs (about $400 each way) were offset by the fact that I wouldn't have to pay sales tax on the engine purchased out of state. I got a quote of $2000 for installation by a very good independent Porsche mechanic.

Armed with this info, I was able to get a much more reasonable quote from my dealer. I paid just under $13K which included a new clutch, various fluids and sales tax. Fortunately, I had resisted the urging of my dealer to allow them to start tearing the car down for inspection. That would have made it expensive to pull the car out of the dealership.

You might be able to put together a similar competitive quote for your dealer by sourcing the new engine from someone on the east coast like Suncoast Porsche in Florida. I even found that the parts department at another local dealership happily offered me my standard 10% PCA parts discount on the engine. You can also hit your dealer with the cost of installing a used engine which should be about half the number they quoted you.

Bottom line - $17K is much too high. In these times, your dealership should be willing to make a more reasonable offer to keep your business.

Sorry to hear about your failure....

I second the Sunset -- I was quoted about the same price for a different failure mechanism.

We rebuilt it ourselves -- securing parts from Jeff at Sunset.

Heck you can order an X81 (is that the right number) for ~11K but you'd have to pay core

charges, -- but you could probably put one of those in for $17k and have close to 400Hp.

m

[fudgiewhale]

I was in a similar situation last summer - IMS failure in my 2000 Boxster S; PCNA declined to help despite two previous defective engines; high initial quote from dealer. I wasn't aware of the work of Jake Raby at that time, so it seemed that my options were either a junkyard engine or a new engine from my dealer. I didn't want to take the chance with the junkyard engine, especially since I heard that the dealer engine would have updates to the IMS and other problem components.

I wasn't happy with the dealer quote, so I investigated sourcing the engine from Sunset Porsche in Oregon (I'm in CA) and having a good local mechanic install it. Sunset's price for the engine was thousands less than my dealer's. (I believe the number was $8900.) I would have to pay to get it shipped and would also have to pay for shipping the old "core" back to them. However, the shipping costs (about $400 each way) were offset by the fact that I wouldn't have to pay sales tax on the engine purchased out of state. I got a quote of $2000 for installation by a very good independent Porsche mechanic.

Armed with this info, I was able to get a much more reasonable quote from my dealer. I paid just under $13K which included a new clutch, various fluids and sales tax. Fortunately, I had resisted the urging of my dealer to allow them to start tearing the car down for inspection. That would have made it expensive to pull the car out of the dealership.

You might be able to put together a similar competitive quote for your dealer by sourcing the new engine from someone on the east coast like Suncoast Porsche in Florida. I even found that the parts department at another local dealership happily offered me my standard 10% PCA parts discount on the engine. You can also hit your dealer with the cost of installing a used engine which should be about half the number they quoted you.

Bottom line - $17K is much too high. In these times, your dealership should be willing to make a more reasonable offer to keep your business.

Hey you guys, it's getting too difficult to respond to each of you individually (I'm polite, but lazy). Suffice it to say that I have been floored by the level of knowledge and depth of sympathy you folks demonstrate in your posts. You all have my sincere thanks.

Here are some more details- I was stopped at a traffic light (one on every corner in Delaware County, PA) after 10 minutes of normal suburban driving. Well, normal except for a few seconds of slightly higher revs as I was showing my bud how smooth the accel was. Really only a quater-mile or so, and never coming anywhere close to the red line. But that had been ten minutes before, and again, nothing extreme.

The car is a 6 speed manual.

I had the AC on.

I was listening to Led Zeppelin on the CD player.

At that point, I was in my 60th day of ownership, and the car felt and sounded no different on that day than it had during my test-drive (such sweet mechanical music! I'm definitely going to de-snorkel my next engine).

Without a doubt, the experience has been frustrating, to say the least. It took a day or two of thinking and praying and fishing, but I got my serenity back (two-and-a-half pound smallie on a dead minnow!!!!).

It will be hard to put the Box on the side-lines while I save for its heart transplant, but the good stuff is always worth waiting for. I just wish I had gotten more than two months out of it before it went poo.

I will take advantage of the lull to gather information- you fine people have already given me many ideas to explore, and I hope that my experience will prove to be educational for others. I will update the thread as I go along...

Fudgie

Edited June 6, 2009 by fudgiewhale

[70Sixter]

Hey you guys, it's getting too difficult to respond to each of you individually (I'm polite, but lazy). Suffice it to say that I have been floored by the level of knowledge and depth of sympathy you folks demonstrate in your posts. You all have my sincere thanks.

Hey, Fudge, please don't think the guys on RennTech each expect an individual answer.

A lot of us try to help, throw out a suggestion(s), and hope that the original poster lets us know the eventual outcome. This kind of feedback is the only reward...that and the hope you'll pass your experience on to the next guy when you can.

Good luck!

[Jake Raby]

I'm waiting for a reply from Jake Raby or his people to see what options they suggest.

None of our work is on hold due to cracked heads.. We are working out some new repairs for the heads and ways to strengthen them...

I have not received an email from fudgiewhale as of yet concerning his misfortune with the IMS, but I'll respond promptly when I do..

We'll be happy to help as options are available that haven't been previously..