Serious engine problems '99 Boxster 2.5 Tiptronic

[Rivva]

Hi guys, new to the forum and would really appreciate any help and advice from anyone who might be able to help. I have a 1999 Boxster 2.5 Tiptronic Auto. About 2 months ago, I topped up the engine oil and think I overfilled it, because on starting up for the past few weeks I have been hearing a clanking noise from the engine. This ended last night with the engine oil light coming on and flashing and the car making a deafeningly loud clanking noise and dumping all the oil out onto the road from what appears to be directly under the gearbox. The car can still be started but has virtually no oil in the engine due to what appears to be a seal being damaged and the engine makes a loud constant clanking noise and sounds awful. An inexperienced local mechanic took one look and said it now might need a new engine but he only glanced at the problem. Have I caused piston damage due to the overfilling with oil then running with little or no oil after the leak? I am aware that a reconditioned engine is going to be expensive and would really hope that there is some way of fixing the problem????

Thanks in advance!

[juniinc]

Wow,,,,ouch

IMS failure? hope not

How much was overfilled? I wish U would/could have drained some oil.

overfilling a M96 engine can possibly cause a few major problems.

I know that owners have used 0W-40 & anywhere from 9.0 to 9.5 quarts of oil. Most used 9.5 quarts.

new oil & filter was changed on my 986S this morning, infact she only took 8.2 quarts.

"It COULD start with too much engine oil. The combination of Oil overfill+ too thin creates too much pressure inside the engine that the AOS cannot maintain so your AOS goes out. pressure has to be released so leaks to the weakest point of the seals - RMS,IMS sealed bearing, valve cover etc?"

M96 engine review in Excellence showed that every IMS failure had oil in its sealed bearing.

Edited March 15, 2009 by juniinc

[pk2]

Riwa,

Generally constant clanks and thuds mean you motor is hammering itself to death.( Unless you have a wrench on the crank thats flying around), given that it's dumped all its oil, it sound as though it already has hammered itself to death. Icing on the cake is you have a 99 which was sort of the pinnacle year for the engine disasters we all know and love.

Junic,

with oil level being critical as you say, how do you reconcile the difference between 8.2 quarts with filter while others are using 9.5? I ask because my cars ready. Can you trust the dipstick. Is a change just like any other car or is it something weird like the old turbos and there dry sumps or something.

Regards, PK

[Glyn]

What you describe is the IMS failure - not caused by adding too much oil - just a coincidence,

Intermediate shaft bearing failes - as it breaks up the oil comes through into the bell housing and drips out onto the floor - If it is this then its terminal for that engine

Edit - misread the first part of your mail, If the car can be started then the IMS has not totaly destroyed itself yet, Dont start the car again - remove gearbox and get the bearing out of the IMS, sounds as though it has colapsed but not destroyed the shaft or engine- either way its bad news.

Not sure if the engine has to come out to replace the IMS bearing or whether it can be replaced with engine in situ and gearbox off - someone will be along later that can confirm this - many very competant people on this site

Edited March 15, 2009 by Glyn

[1schoir]

What you describe is the IMS failure - not caused by adding too much oil - just a coincidence,

Intermediate shaft bearing failes - as it breaks up the oil comes through into the bell housing and drips out onto the floor - If it is this then its terminal for that engine

Edit - misread the first part of your mail, If the car can be started then the IMS has not totaly destroyed itself yet, Dont start the car again - remove gearbox and get the bearing out of the IMS, sounds as though it has colapsed but not destroyed the shaft or engine- either way its bad news.

Not sure if the engine has to come out to replace the IMS bearing or whether it can be replaced with engine in situ and gearbox off - someone will be along later that can confirm this - many very competant people on this site

If you are lucky enough that the IMS bearing has not totally failed (i.e., that the shaft has not shifted enough to allow the chains to jump off and then have the valves hit the pistons as they are going up, etc.), AND if you are "lucky" enough to find that you have a single-row IMS bearing, instead of what should be in there because it's a MY 99, then you can replace the bearing without engine tear down.

You will still have to remove the transmission in any event. You can then remove the IMS flange and inspect the bearing to see how badly it may have failed.

If you find the double-bearing the engine must be torn down to replace. Take a look at this very informative video by Charles Navarro of LN Engineering and Jake Raby of Flat 6 Innovations for a great overview of what happens to these bearings:

It is my understanding that Porsche does not sell the bearings by themselves, but only in conjunction with a complete Intermediate Shaft. LN Engineering sells a retrofit kit with a severe duty ceramic bearing and a beefier support stud for about $600, but again this is only feasible if you have a single-row bearing setup.

Keep us posted.

Regards, Maurice.

[timbo]

Very interesting video, does anyone know how it recieves its lubrication? if its just a grease packed bearing!!!! not suprised it fails.

[1schoir]

Very interesting video, does anyone know how it recieves its lubrication? if its just a grease packed bearing!!!! not suprised it fails.

timbo:

It is a grease packed, sealed bearing which, as designed, is not supposed to get lubrication from outside the bearing.

The problem as I understand it, is that with long drain intervals, the oil gets contaminated with combustion byproducts and fuel and that these find their way inside the bearing and wash out the grease.

No lubrication = kaboom!

Regards, Maurice.

[porschepinoy]

My car 99 and has 65k on motor is this something( IMS ) I have to worry about? How would you tell if gone bad without removing from the engine? Also does mine come with dual row or single bearing?

Will

[usaf-lt-g]

What you describe is the IMS failure - not caused by adding too much oil - just a coincidence,

Intermediate shaft bearing failes - as it breaks up the oil comes through into the bell housing and drips out onto the floor - If it is this then its terminal for that engine

Edit - misread the first part of your mail, If the car can be started then the IMS has not totaly destroyed itself yet, Dont start the car again - remove gearbox and get the bearing out of the IMS, sounds as though it has colapsed but not destroyed the shaft or engine- either way its bad news.

Not sure if the engine has to come out to replace the IMS bearing or whether it can be replaced with engine in situ and gearbox off - someone will be along later that can confirm this - many very competant people on this site

If you are lucky enough that the IMS bearing has not totally failed (i.e., that the shaft has not shifted enough to allow the chains to jump off and then have the valves hit the pistons as they are going up, etc.), AND if you are "lucky" enough to find that you have a single-row IMS bearing, instead of what should be in there because it's a MY 99, then you can replace the bearing without engine tear down.

You will still have to remove the transmission in any event. You can then remove the IMS flange and inspect the bearing to see how badly it may have failed.

If you find the double-bearing the engine must be torn down to replace. Take a look at this very informative video by Charles Navarro of LN Engineering and Jake Raby of Flat 6 Innovations for a great overview of what happens to these bearings:

It is my understanding that Porsche does not sell the bearings by themselves, but only in conjunction with a complete Intermediate Shaft. LN Engineering sells a retrofit kit with a severe duty ceramic bearing and a beefier support stud for about $600, but again this is only feasible if you have a single-row bearing setup.

Keep us posted.

Regards, Maurice.

Interesting, MY00 S I "believe" is still running smooth at 82k miles with little issues other than some chips on the front bumper, and a couple of minor "interior" plastic pieces I need to replace. What I would be interested in, is if there's an actual "Sound Clip" of "what to listen for" if the IMS bearing is going bad or not. I realize this would probably have to be a pretty high bitrate sound clip in order to capture the sound acurately. But I think it would help people deduct whether or not they may be experiencing this issue before it's completely too late.

Second, I'm wondering if that retrofit kit, or if there's some other solution for "preventative" maintainence on MY00 S, is a relatively "simplex" fix. I'm HUGE on preventative maintainence, and always try to stay up-to-date with the latest "intel" on newer "beefier" parts that fix "known issues" or "potential engine killers" for the DIY'er. Although I can't say I have the "means" to drop the engine and do a complete re-build. If we're talking about a fix, that allows me to drop just the transmission while leaving the engine all hooked up, to install a bearing and maybe replace the RMS while I'm down there... for a beefier (bulletproof) IMS bearing... well then sir, that's right up my alley.

[timbo]

Very interesting video, does anyone know how it recieves its lubrication? if its just a grease packed bearing!!!! not suprised it fails.

timbo:

It is a grease packed, sealed bearing which, as designed, is not supposed to get lubrication from outside the bearing.

The problem as I understand it, is that with long drain intervals, the oil gets contaminated with combustion byproducts and fuel and that these find their way inside the bearing and wash out the grease.

No lubrication = kaboom!

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks for that Maurice, seems to me to put a grease packed bearing in that kind of environment is stupid, so it could go just like a wheel bearing?

[1schoir]

Thanks for that Maurice, seems to me to put a grease packed bearing in that kind of environment is stupid, so it could go just like a wheel bearing?

timbo:

It just doesn't seem to be the best type of bearing for the application, that's for sure. Especially because the outer race is the part of the bearing that spins!

It has made (and will make) for lots of engine rebuilds/replacements. If only the bean counters at Porsche hadn't overuled the engineers we might have a lot less anxiety floating around these days.

Regards, Maurice.

[1schoir]

Interesting, MY00 S I "believe" is still running smooth at 82k miles with little issues other than some chips on the front bumper, and a couple of minor "interior" plastic pieces I need to replace. What I would be interested in, is if there's an actual "Sound Clip" of "what to listen for" if the IMS bearing is going bad or not. I realize this would probably have to be a pretty high bitrate sound clip in order to capture the sound acurately. But I think it would help people deduct whether or not they may be experiencing this issue before it's completely too late.

Second, I'm wondering if that retrofit kit, or if there's some other solution for "preventative" maintainence on MY00 S, is a relatively "simplex" fix. I'm HUGE on preventative maintainence, and always try to stay up-to-date with the latest "intel" on newer "beefier" parts that fix "known issues" or "potential engine killers" for the DIY'er. Although I can't say I have the "means" to drop the engine and do a complete re-build. If we're talking about a fix, that allows me to drop just the transmission while leaving the engine all hooked up, to install a bearing and maybe replace the RMS while I'm down there... for a beefier (bulletproof) IMS bearing... well then sir, that's right up my alley.

usaf-lt-g:

The retrofit is a "relatively simple" fix, but it can only be applied to those M96 motors that have the single-row bearing supporting the IMS. If that's the case, then it only requires removal of the transmission, the IMS flange and the nut on the support stud before you can install the new, beefier parts.

If you have a dual-row bearing arrangement, this cannot be done this way, and the entire engine must be torn down to retrofit a fix.

Regards, Maurice.

Edited March 21, 2009 by 1schoir

[jmatta]

Complicating the matter, for a period of perhaps a year or two, Porsche used whatever bearing was available to build the engine. Jake and Charles have found single and double bearings in cars manufactured in the same year. As Maurice stated, the only way to know for sure is to pull the outer flange and take a look. I'm hopeful my S has a double, but even those aren't spared failure.

Change your oil frequently, every 5-6k miles; cheapest insurance you can ask for especially as the boys learn more and more about the M96's.

[Jake Raby]

And the bearing is applied BACKWARD from the way it was designed to operate.. More later, we have some serous info on this that we are not sure how to share!