3rd replacement RMS and IMS Seals

[abiazis]

Well......my warranty runs out a month ago and the dreaded Rear Main Seal /Intermediate Shaft Seal leak occurs again at 74,000 miles........happened previously at 60k and 68k......... called Porsche North america and sent them 26 pages of service records on the car......they came through and paid for the labor and parts 100% for replacement of the IMS seal which was the culprit......

the upgraded RMS that was in there was okay, but I am paying for a new RMS seal to secure a 2 year warranty....warranty not available on out of warranty car unless I spend something as an owner expensed item related to a repair like this...... no additional warranty on free work on out of warranty car....funky rule...

The dealer recommended that I replace the bearing on the Intermediate Shaft, which is sold together with the IMShaft for $800.....and can't be bought separately....they will use the new bearing on the old shaft and we hope that fixes the issues once and for all.....I will have a new shaft for an expensive paperweight.........anyone else have a similar experience with the IMShaft bearing replacement, etc....?? The dealer feels that replacing the bearing will be a preventative measure in having a potential IMShaft failure that would be more critical and would cost about $ 5k in repairs versus paying approx. $ 700 after discount for the preventative repair now... any opinions on this course of action???

[Loren]

:welcome:

If the RMS has been replaced 3 times then either there have been bad installs or the dealer has not properly measured the case specs. if the case specs are off Porsche should replace the engine - if the dealer does not know how to properly replace the RMS then they either need to go back to training or you need to find a new dealer.

[1schoir]

Well......my warranty runs out a month ago and the dreaded Rear Main Seal /Intermediate Shaft Seal leak occurs again at 74,000 miles........happened previously at 60k and 68k......... called Porsche North america and sent them 26 pages of service records on the car......they came through and paid for the labor and parts 100% for replacement of the IMS seal which was the culprit......

the upgraded RMS that was in there was okay, but I am paying for a new RMS seal to secure a 2 year warranty....warranty not available on out of warranty car unless I spend something as an owner expensed item related to a repair like this...... no additional warranty on free work on out of warranty car....funky rule...

The dealer recommended that I replace the bearing on the Intermediate Shaft, which is sold together with the IMShaft for $800.....and can't be bought separately....they will use the new bearing on the old shaft and we hope that fixes the issues once and for all.....I will have a new shaft for an expensive paperweight.........anyone else have a similar experience with the IMShaft bearing replacement, etc....?? The dealer feels that replacing the bearing will be a preventative measure in having a potential IMShaft failure that would be more critical and would cost about $ 5k in repairs versus paying approx. $ 700 after discount for the preventative repair now... any opinions on this course of action???

You might want to consider the IMS retrofit kit from LN Engineering. I believe it costs about $600 and it is claimed to be a much more severe duty bearing, along with a beefier flange and support stud.

Do some reading here: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html before you make a decision.

Not sure about the warranty they provide if that's your main concern.

Regards, Maurice.

[abiazis]

Well......my warranty runs out a month ago and the dreaded Rear Main Seal /Intermediate Shaft Seal leak occurs again at 74,000 miles........happened previously at 60k and 68k......... called Porsche North america and sent them 26 pages of service records on the car......they came through and paid for the labor and parts 100% for replacement of the IMS seal which was the culprit......

the upgraded RMS that was in there was okay, but I am paying for a new RMS seal to secure a 2 year warranty....warranty not available on out of warranty car unless I spend something as an owner expensed item related to a repair like this...... no additional warranty on free work on out of warranty car....funky rule...

The dealer recommended that I replace the bearing on the Intermediate Shaft, which is sold together with the IMShaft for $800.....and can't be bought separately....they will use the new bearing on the old shaft and we hope that fixes the issues once and for all.....I will have a new shaft for an expensive paperweight.........anyone else have a similar experience with the IMShaft bearing replacement, etc....?? The dealer feels that replacing the bearing will be a preventative measure in having a potential IMShaft failure that would be more critical and would cost about $ 5k in repairs versus paying approx. $ 700 after discount for the preventative repair now... any opinions on this course of action???

Thanks for the advice given in the trail of posts!!

You might want to consider the IMS retrofit kit from LN Engineering. I believe it costs about $600 and it is claimed to be a much more severe duty bearing, along with a beefier flange and support stud.

Do some reading here: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html before you make a decision.

Not sure about the warranty they provide if that's your main concern.

Regards, Maurice.

Thanks agin for the advice.....good one.....Andy B...

[larez2]

Hi,

I'd follow Loren's advice and see if you can find out if the case specs are off and if so, get a new engine....

I was just curious did they say why they are just replacing the bearing only and not both the IMS and bearing? Seems like if you are getting the new IMS and bearing why wouldn't they install both of them?

Also did they say if they were going to take the engine apart to replace the bearing?

If it's only going to cost you $700 to do that repair, I'd do it, it'll probably give you some of peace of mind and hopefully fix everything and give you years of trouble free motoring!

Good Luck,

larez2

[1schoir]

Hi,

I'd follow Loren's advice and see if you can find out if the case specs are off and if so, get a new engine....

I was just curious did they say why they are just replacing the bearing only and not both the IMS and bearing? Seems like if you are getting the new IMS and bearing why wouldn't they install both of them?

Also did they say if they were going to take the engine apart to replace the bearing?

If it's only going to cost you $700 to do that repair, I'd do it, it'll probably give you some of peace of mind and hopefully fix everything and give you years of trouble free motoring!

Good Luck,

larez2

larez2:

The Intermediate Shaft itself is not the part that fails. It's usually the bearing itself or the support stud that give out.

Replacing just the bearing and support stud (and the flange) does not require engine teardown in a motor with the single-row bearing. I don't believe there is any advantage to replacing the Intermediate Shaft itself, as that is not where the problem lies.

Regards, Maurice.

[judgejon]

Well......my warranty runs out a month ago and the dreaded Rear Main Seal /Intermediate Shaft Seal leak occurs again at 74,000 miles........happened previously at 60k and 68k......... called Porsche North america and sent them 26 pages of service records on the car......they came through and paid for the labor and parts 100% for replacement of the IMS seal which was the culprit......

the upgraded RMS that was in there was okay, but I am paying for a new RMS seal to secure a 2 year warranty....warranty not available on out of warranty car unless I spend something as an owner expensed item related to a repair like this...... no additional warranty on free work on out of warranty car....funky rule...

The dealer recommended that I replace the bearing on the Intermediate Shaft, which is sold together with the IMShaft for $800.....and can't be bought separately....they will use the new bearing on the old shaft and we hope that fixes the issues once and for all.....I will have a new shaft for an expensive paperweight.........anyone else have a similar experience with the IMShaft bearing replacement, etc....?? The dealer feels that replacing the bearing will be a preventative measure in having a potential IMShaft failure that would be more critical and would cost about $ 5k in repairs versus paying approx. $ 700 after discount for the preventative repair now... any opinions on this course of action???

what year and engine? good luck....

[abiazis]

Hi,

I'd follow Loren's advice and see if you can find out if the case specs are off and if so, get a new engine....

I was just curious did they say why they are just replacing the bearing only and not both the IMS and bearing? Seems like if you are getting the new IMS and bearing why wouldn't they install both of them?

Also did they say if they were going to take the engine apart to replace the bearing?

If it's only going to cost you $700 to do that repair, I'd do it, it'll probably give you some of peace of mind and hopefully fix everything and give you years of trouble free motoring!

Good Luck,

larez2

larez2:

The Intermediate Shaft itself is not the part that fails. It's usually the bearing itself or the support stud that give out.

Replacing just the bearing and support stud (and the flange) does not require engine teardown in a motor with the single-row bearing. I don't believe there is any advantage to replacing the Intermediate Shaft itself, as that is not where the problem lies.

Regards, Maurice.

I found out today in new development that Porsche upgraded the shaft and the bearing that they sell as one part, so I can't just change out the old bearing...for a new one......they are going to try to see if the whole job can be covered due to this acknowledgement that the part needed an upgrade......car is 2003 C4S..........

[abiazis]

:welcome:

If the RMS has been replaced 3 times then either there have been bad installs or the dealer has not properly measured the case specs. if the case specs are off Porsche should replace the engine - if the dealer does not know how to properly replace the RMS then they either need to go back to training or you need to find a new dealer.

I asked them to check the case specs and they are okay for this engine.......bearing and shaft have been recently upgraded so changing just the bearing no longer an option.....now seeing if Porsche will replace the shaft and bearing as a result at no charge due to acknowledgement that part needed to be upgraded for durability reasons.........we'll see....car in shop for 4 days now......

[abiazis]

Saga over with decision made on 3 final repair options...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Ellis Atlanta Dealer did try really real hard to assist....final options:

1) Replace the IMS seal and pay for RMS seal. Dealer pays for everything else via Porsche. Car out of warranty 3 months, so Porsche NA and dealer did something - about $ 1,000 in repairs. 2 year warranty on the RMS and IMS seals, since I paid something for leak repair per their rules. Case specs were good. no major engine disassembly a plus...at least most of the bolts still twisted in by German factory.....

2) Buy aftermarket heavy duty bearing, no warranty and slip on to the existing IM Shaft, no major teardown.

3) Replace IMshaft with new upgraded Porsche IM shaft and bearing and receive 50 % off labor and 2 year warranty on lower end of engine and bascially resealed motor.....bill to be around $ 2,000 in total and take preventative risk of no more failures. have to do major engine teardown, good confidence in techs, but you never know......maybe other issues later...car runs great now.....

decision - # 1 ......75,000 mile car, 6 years old, worth 30 on trade max,

low 40's retail.......take risk IMS original bearing holds up...........I will keep as my second 911 and daily driver, have 993 - 1995 cab with 37k miles in great shape..........wife said buy a new car to put a better smile on my face....maybe Maserati 4 door, Bentley or Aston 2 door....Panamera too ugly in and out for me......

[1schoir]

Saga over with decision made on 3 final repair options...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Ellis Atlanta Dealer did try really real hard to assist....final options:

1) Replace the IMS seal and pay for RMS seal. Dealer pays for everything else via Porsche. Car out of warranty 3 months, so Porsche NA and dealer did something - about $ 1,000 in repairs. 2 year warranty on the RMS and IMS seals, since I paid something for leak repair per their rules. Case specs were good. no major engine disassembly a plus...at least most of the bolts still twisted in by German factory.....

2) Buy aftermarket heavy duty bearing, no warranty and slip on to the existing IM Shaft, no major teardown.

3) Replace IMshaft with new upgraded Porsche IM shaft and bearing and receive 50 % off labor and 2 year warranty on lower end of engine and bascially resealed motor.....bill to be around $ 2,000 in total and take preventative risk of no more failures. have to do major engine teardown, good confidence in techs, but you never know......maybe other issues later...car runs great now.....

decision - # 1 ......75,000 mile car, 6 years old, worth 30 on trade max,

low 40's retail.......take risk IMS original bearing holds up...........I will keep as my second 911 and daily driver, have 993 - 1995 cab with 37k miles in great shape..........wife said buy a new car to put a better smile on my face....maybe Maserati 4 door, Bentley or Aston 2 door....Panamera too ugly in and out for me......

It's a tough call at this point.

I would lean towards the LN Engineering solution, even though there is no warranty and there are no long term statistics at this point. Going with this option would rely on trusting the engineering overkill that has been designed and built into this solution by Charles Navarro and Jake Raby.

What would motivate me away from either of the Porsche solutions is that both of those options still have a record of failures, even if the failures don't appear to be as frequent as the with the earlier, less beefy single row bearing which came after the double-row bearing.

As I said, it's a tough call but at least you have the single-row bearing set-up which allows you to have the options without the tear down.

Nice to see that the dealer is trying to work with you, even if it might be partially motivated by the tough economic times.

Regards, Maurice.

[911h20]

Saga over with decision made on 3 final repair options...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Ellis Atlanta Dealer did try really real hard to assist....final options:

1) Replace the IMS seal and pay for RMS seal. Dealer pays for everything else via Porsche. Car out of warranty 3 months, so Porsche NA and dealer did something - about $ 1,000 in repairs. 2 year warranty on the RMS and IMS seals, since I paid something for leak repair per their rules. Case specs were good. no major engine disassembly a plus...at least most of the bolts still twisted in by German factory.....

2) Buy aftermarket heavy duty bearing, no warranty and slip on to the existing IM Shaft, no major teardown.

3) Replace IMshaft with new upgraded Porsche IM shaft and bearing and receive 50 % off labor and 2 year warranty on lower end of engine and bascially resealed motor.....bill to be around $ 2,000 in total and take preventative risk of no more failures. have to do major engine teardown, good confidence in techs, but you never know......maybe other issues later...car runs great now.....

decision - # 1 ......75,000 mile car, 6 years old, worth 30 on trade max,

low 40's retail.......take risk IMS original bearing holds up...........I will keep as my second 911 and daily driver, have 993 - 1995 cab with 37k miles in great shape..........wife said buy a new car to put a better smile on my face....maybe Maserati 4 door, Bentley or Aston 2 door....Panamera too ugly in and out for me......

listen to your wife and get the new 997!

[gchu]

Just found an oil spot under my 996. The RMS nightmare finally happened to mine.

Is back to the dealer the only option for this repair? From many of the forum posts, there are some dealers not properly trainned to replace the RMS or did it right. There are there dealers in the San Francisco peninsula where I live. Does anyone have experience one with a RMS job done?

In addition, warranty will replace a new englne if the case spec are off, but what happen if out of warranty?

[c70Pete]

if the case specs were good then I would go with the aftermarket heavy duty bearing.... from what I'm seeing the 2002+ cars had more IMS bearing failures than the older 3.4 cars!!!

I'm getting a new 3.4 for my 99 and it comes with a 2 year warranty... but when that warranty runs out and I'm in there doing a clutch job you can bet that I'll be replacing the IMS bearing with something more substantial... if your bearing breaks you can kiss your engine good bye....

go for the aftermarket bearing...

[Benjamin Choi]

from what I'm seeing the 2002+ cars had more IMS bearing failures than the older 3.4 cars!!!

thats prob cuz the 3.4s rarely lasted long enough to see an IMS failure :D

good luck with the repairs, bud. i don't recommend the aftermarket. there's just 0 data/history.

[c70Pete]

from what I'm seeing the 2002+ cars had more IMS bearing failures than the older 3.4 cars!!!

thats prob cuz the 3.4s rarely lasted long enough to see an IMS failure :D

good luck with the repairs, bud. i don't recommend the aftermarket. there's just 0 data/history.

the 3.4's don't last long enough to see IMS failures...? my 3.4 has outlasted many 3.6's which had IMS failures... my engine didn't have IMS failure but big end bearing failure from oil starvation... there have been more 3.6 IMS failures than 3.4 IMS failures especially with 2002-03... and I have discussed this with my porsche service rep and he agrees....

as for the aftermarket do you really think Jake Raby's solution is no good? hmmm I'm inclined to think *anything* is better than what porsche put in there... but now that its out in the open I think its good to service and replace the IMS bearing every 30,000 miles just for peace of mind... for $700 just make it part of your regular maintenance...

[cnavarro]

To answer the question on the IMS retrofit - we have to work within the constraints given (that what goes in must be the same dimensionally as what comes out). We source the best bearing money can buy and in fact, the bearing costs about 25 times more than what I would pay for the bearing Porsche put in (at least for the single row retrofit). What changes we have made to the IMS should have been standard from Porsche. I'll be the first to say that a teardown to get to the IMS would be the best solution, but I wouldn't go with Porsche's final revision from the MY06 and later engines. For the price, you can have much, much better, and we can do a lot more to the IMS with respect to load capacity and longevity with the modifications we make. We didn't come up with this alone - thankfully we have had other concerned individuals (fellow Porsche owners) who have been willing to share their expertise in areas like bearing design and engineering (as well as wear studies and modeling) to get us to where we are today.

But before going that far, I'm with Loren... I'm willing to bet someone isn't using the go no-go gauge properly, i.e. whoever is interpreting the results is favoring the least expense solution for the dealership (and Porsche) by choosing the cheaper solution which is to just keep throwing RMS's at it. I have heard from several techs that it's easy to use the tool to get whatever result you want to get. If the carrier is shuffling, it can't be good for the long term reliability of the engine.

Edited April 28, 2009 by cnavarro