New RMS TSB come out today

[Scouser]

Hi Loren, see this thread just out on rennlist

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...threadid=143999

Do you know of this TSB? Can we get our hands on it ;)

[mim3]

Yes, Please! :)

[Tool Pants]

It would be interesting to see if there is yet another bulletin about the seal(s) issue.

However, ordering 4 bolts for the crankcase, and 3 bolts for the intermediate shaft flange is nothing new. http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.a...F-BCBEA378353F}

I have made a green line to 1 of the 3 bolts for the flange. The bolts are not supposed to be reused.

I have made a yellow line to the 4 bolts on the rear of the crankcase.

So he has the triple wammy. Leaks from the intermediate shaft seal, rear main seal, and the crankcase bolts.

[Loren]

Exerpt:

Examination of engines that were the subject of complaints revealed that no(t) only the crankshaft sealing ring on the flywheel side can be the cause for the oil loss, engine oil can also leak out past the crankcase and intermediate shaft flange bolt threads.

Since March 9, 2004 bolts with a sealant coating on the thread and head have been used during assembly to fasten the crankcase halves in the area of the flywheel.

On vehicles manufactured prior to the above-mentioned, the four crankcase bolts and the three intermediate shaft flange bolts must be replaced in addition to the crankshaft sealing ring in the event of an oil leak in the area.

ENGINES REPLACED FOR THIS REASON UNDER WARRANTY WILL BE SUBJECT TO A CHARGE BACK AND THE ENGINE RETURNED TO THE DEALER.

More to come when it gets here in a few days...

[Scouser]

Thanks Loren.

The saga continues no less......

[RoShamBo]

Guys

Wanted some advice please.

I am in the UK & have a 2.5 year old C4S Coupe.

Recenlty diagnosed as having RMS failure & is going in next week to be sorted.

As the car is less than 3 years old & has a full Porsche service history,my dealer has put through a good-will claim & they expect Porsche to pay "probably half the labour costs"

In your opinions is this fair or should I be asking for full contribution.

Cost of job is £706, of which majority is labour.

Any advice on what I should be pushing for appreciated.

Ro.

[Scouser]

The RMS failure is a manufacturing fault. It hasn't failed through any wear and tear and especially on a 2.5 year motor. Since it's a design flaw it's not your fault so you should not be paying anything at all. I would take that up with Reading.

[percymon]

At 2.5 years old, and provided it has a full OPC service then should all be doen under goodwill.

Print a few of the articles around on RMS and take them with you - once they know you've done your homework they will most likley pay all.

[CoreyNJ]

So I'm starting to think it's not a design fault the RMS problem, but an issue with the mobile 1 fill from the factory(I wonder what the engineers spec'd before marketing got involved).

Synthetic oil has a tendancy to do this kind of stuff, like slipping past threads(used to happen all the time with syntech(spelling?) on my 930 turbo back in the late 80's.

[Tool Pants]

It is a mechanical issue. Has nothing to do with the type of oil or the seal material, or I would think Porsche would have figured it out 7 years ago. Oakum, rubber, or other natural material seals are long gone

Any grease or oil seal needs to compress the seal lips with some pressure against a round rotating object. Should be 360 degrees. It is done with a spring band behind the lip. That is why when I started out 5 years ago some shops would cut the spring to make it shorter. Thereby increasing the pressure against the lip.

Over time any lip type seal will leak as the edge of the lip wears away from the rotating shaft. This is normal wear and tear as the engine builds up miles. What is going on with the 996/986 motors is not normal. The rotating shaft has moved inside the crankcase. The seal lip therefore cannot provide a 360 degree tension or contact against the end of the crankshaft.

[Scouser]

Note that we don't seem to be seeing any FMS (Front Main Seal) problems. This is the crankshaft seal at the belt pulley end (front) of the engine. It only seems to occur at the RMS. If the oil grade was an issue then we should see similar problems with the FMS.

It confuses me why they haven't applied the same design bearing and seal from the front of the engine in the back. This makes me think that the cause of the problem is a misaligned transmission (or flywheel). If it wobbles it will cause crankshaft wobble leading to RMS failure. Just a hunch.

[Mother]

Does anyone have the part numbers for the bolts and RMS?

2001 996 3.4

[Loren]

Does anyone have the part numbers for the bolts and RMS?

2001 996 3.4

It is extremely important to follow the TSB instructions for replacement and torque of these parts.

999 385 004 09 New/Coated crankcase bolt, M6 x 35 (4 ea. required per vehicle) - (about $1 each)

900 385 275 09 New/Coated bolt for intermediate shaft, M6 x 20 (3 ea. required per vehicle) - (about $0.40 each)

999 113 490 41 Shaft seal (RMS) - (about $17.02 each)

[JimPDX]

Exerpt:

"...Since March 9, 2004 bolts with a sealant coating on the thread and head have been used during assembly to fasten the crankcase halves in the area of the flywheel..."

Loren...

Something I don't understand...is the fact that a sealant coating on the thread and head of the bolts of that much significance with the RMS problem(s)?

Thx...

Jim

[Loren]

From the TSB on the subject...

Examination of engines that were the subject of complaints revealed other oil leaks in addition to those found in the crankshaft sealing ring on the flywheel side. These engine oil leak areas included:

> crankcase bolt threads

> intermediate-shaft flange area.

Since March 9, 2004, bolts with a sealant coating on the thread and head have been used during assembly to fasten the crankcase halves in the area of the flywheel.

On vehicles manufactured prior to the above-mentioned date (See Introduction), the four crankcase bolts and the three intermediate shaft flange bolts must be replaced in addition to the crankshaft sealing  ring in the event of an oil leak in the area.

Engines replaced for this reason under warranty will be subject to a charge back and the engine returned to the dealer.

[Mother]

I am looking for the IMS new housing number and seal number along with any info on removing and installing the INS.

[Loren]

I am looking for the IMS new housing number and seal number along with any info on removing and installing the INS.

There was a change made to the IMS seal, crankshaft gear, flange and chain in Sept 2000 production. Some of the old parts are not available anymore and you can't mix most of the parts. This is covered in detail in TSB 10/00 1551 New Drive Chain and Seal for Intermediate Shaft (dated 11-10-00). R&R the seal (if you have the right parts) also requires several special tools. IMHO... unless you have the TSB, tools and workshop manual - you may not want to tackle this.

A - Toothed segment with hexagon-head bolt M 12 x 50 No. 9538/1

B - Socket wrench No. 9110

C - Retaining device No. 9642

[Rhamy]

Having shown this pic to my service guy it appears that my leak is coming from the small intermediate shaft orientation bolt that is in the middle of the 3 flange bolts, he is going to change the whole cover.

How does that sound? Any suggestions?

[Loren]

Having shown this pic to my service guy it appears that my leak is coming from the small intermediate shaft orientation bolt that is in the middle of the 3 flange bolts, he is going to change the whole cover.

How does that sound?  Any suggestions?

The seal and cover can be changed (more easily) if your engine has the newer style. The earlier bolts are known to leak (see Tool Pants post above) so he should check closely to see if the seal is actually leaking - could be just the bolts.

[Rhamy]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The seal and cover can be changed (more easily) if your engine has the newer style. The earlier bolts are known to leak (see Tool Pants post above) so he should check closely to see if the seal is actually leaking - could be just the bolts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apologies mine is a 2001 c2 3.4l.

All of the 7 bolts mentioned in the TSB have been changed to the new sealed ones, leak is coming from that little bolt in the middle of the 3 ims flange bolts

[Mother]

Thanks for the images - my engine is a 2001 and flywheel is off, I do have the shop manual and I did'nt see any adjustments for the protruding screw (what is it's purpose) on the housing just the torque of the lock nut during assembly so this has got me confused. They note these tools also, however I can see where some ingenuity and a common screwdriver and wrench will work on just the housing. My manual calls for TDC and the loosing of the cam chains etc. However I had heard that simply positioning the eng on TDC #1 Cyl is all that was required to remove the INS housing which the seal is on any truth to this?

[Loren]

What supplement and date is on the bottom of that section (15 23 19) of your manual? Mine is Supplement 71, 2002 and it states to turn the engine to TDC. I think you release the chain tensioners so that the intermediate shaft isn't pulled to one side when you release it. Maybe Jeff can ask Peter if they have another method at his shop.

[Mother]

What supplement and date is on the bottom of that section (15 23 19) of your manual? Mine is Supplement 71, 2002 and it states to turn the engine to TDC. I think you release the chain tensioners so that the intermediate shaft isn't pulled to one side when you release it. Maybe Jeff can ask Peter if they have another method at his shop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Supplement 71-2002 same as yours, and thanks for checking on an easier route.

[Rob in WA]

Mine's in the third RMS replacement as we speak. Apparently it's leaking out of the bolts this time. My service advisor told me that there are new (second set) bolts that Porsche just sent to the dealerships, but no TSB on them.

Can anyone confirm?

[Mother]

Mine's in the third RMS replacement as we speak.  Apparently it's leaking out of the bolts this time.  My service advisor told me that there are new (second set) bolts that Porsche just sent to the dealerships, but no TSB on them.

Can anyone confirm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it leaking from the Crankshaft halves or INS? The crankshaft are new type also.

You would have to get the number from them to compare.

The new bolts I installed for the INS (Intermediate shaft seal) are:

#900-385-275-09 INS Housing.

I have just removed them on mine (2001) and don't understand why there changing the bolts since the seal is what prevents the oil from getting to the bolts.

If it's leaking from the INS make sure that you are using the new housing with the new sealing ring (orange color).