terrible grinding noise when attempt to move top

[phaphaphooey]

Alright guys, I have searched and am still searching but here it goes. It began to rain on my way home so I slowed to put my top up. I performed the top-while-moving mod so I slowed down to somewhere in the teens mph wise and began raising it. After it came fully up and I latched it into place I noticed that the top open light was still illuminated on my dash. I unclipped the top and push the up button figuring that maybe it wasn't up all the way. Nothing happened so I pushed the down button to see if it would back up. It began to make a horrible grinding noise directly behind my head so I latched it back until I got home. Just had my wife hit the button while I stood outside the car and watched/listened. I would be darned if it didn't sound like the grinding was coming from the top motor. The top moved through its going down process but very slowly and with great labor. Same thing happened when she put it back up. It seems to function althought it protests mightly. The light on the dash remains on. Any ideas?

[phaphaphooey]

searched low and high but couldn't find any existing threads with symptoms similar to mine. Any help would be much appreciated.

[phaphaphooey]

Well crap. I went out and tried to pinpoint the issue. I hit the convertible top down button and stopped it almost as soon as I hit it. I stepped outside and noticed that only the driver's side of the clamshell raised so I assume that it is a transmission/cable/piston problem.

[1schoir]

Well crap. I went out and tried to pinpoint the issue. I hit the convertible top down button and stopped it almost as soon as I hit it. I stepped outside and noticed that only the driver's side of the clamshell raised so I assume that it is a transmission/cable/piston problem.

phapha:

From the symptoms that you describe, it sounds as though it's probably the inner cables (or from your most current description the passenger side inner cable) that have either frayed, broken, or "retracted" due to the stretching of the outer black sheathing.

You didnt' mention what year your Boxster is, but if it's one of the earlier ones (97 to 99) and it has the non-textured black outer cable sheaths, then it's most likely the stretching issue. If the cables are textured, they it's most likely fraying of the cables.

Since you mentioned that the noise is coming from the motor, then that might point away from a possible problem at the worm gear where the cables goes into the transmissions.

Your first step should be to pull off the upside-down u-shaped clip on the each side of the motor and inspect the inner (speedometer-type) cable. If it's not sticking out 3/4 of an inch, that's your problem and that has been covered here many times. Search the archives for the definitive thread by Tool Pants.

If they are sticking out that far, grab the inner cable with a pair of pliers or vise grips and pull on the cable a little. If the cable is broken or frayed, that will become evident when you pull on it.

Keep us posted.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

Thank you for your help. As I searched through the archive I noticed that you often post very helpful comments. Unfortunately, I know much more about 996/997 cars than I do 986 cars so that is the reason I am having difficulty with this.

Dumb me forgot to include that my Boxster is a 2000 so it should have the updated cables/transmission.

I attempted to at least get the clamshell down last night so that it could be drivable today but did not have time so am driving my wife's Acura today. The manual only tells how to get access to the cables and whatnot with the top already down (which I already knew since I have acessed my engine before. I am going to search more on here then tackle it when I get home today. Thank you for your help thus far.

[1schoir]

Thank you for your help. As I searched through the archive I noticed that you often post very helpful comments. Unfortunately, I know much more about 996/997 cars than I do 986 cars so that is the reason I am having difficulty with this.

Dumb me forgot to include that my Boxster is a 2000 so it should have the updated cables/transmission.

I attempted to at least get the clamshell down last night so that it could be drivable today but did not have time so am driving my wife's Acura today. The manual only tells how to get access to the cables and whatnot with the top already down (which I already knew since I have acessed my engine before. I am going to search more on here then tackle it when I get home today. Thank you for your help thus far.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm the same with respect to the 996/997 as you are with the Boxsters. That's why this forum is so great. :renntech:

I found one of the threads that I was referring to: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=252

It's got part numbers and good photos that will help you in case you end up having to replace one of the cables.

In the meantime, be very careful not to operate the top with the switch as you risk creasing the clamshell. No fun, and lots of $$$.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

I worked on the car on Weds and have not had time to do so again until today. Weds I found that the passenger side braided cable that connects to the top had snapped. I could not get the driver's side ball joint to snap off while reaching through the rollbars, even at one point putting all of my weight into trying to pry it away from the car. I then went through old threads and found a Toolpants suggestion to reach through the crack in the clamshell, take the clip off of the piston that holds it to the clamshell, and then pry the piston off of the clamshell. Since I could barely fit my arm through the crack in the clamshell, this was no fun as well. I tried prying to piston off with both my bare hands and a long flat head screwdriver but had no luck. I also read someone that had gently pulled the "stuck" side of the clamshell up to the same level of the clamshell side that worked for easier work access. I tried this but that clamshell side did not move up evenly but instead was tilting and was forcing the wing that wraps around towards the passenger side door to point downwards, which it never does in normal operation. I still feel that my best option at this point is to get the piston off of the raised side of the clamshell so that I can at least press the clamshell down into its normal resting position and drive the car without it looking like some type of horror movie reject. Wish me luck.

[1schoir]

I worked on the car on Weds and have not had time to do so again until today. Weds I found that the passenger side braided cable that connects to the top had snapped. I could not get the driver's side ball joint to snap off while reaching through the rollbars, even at one point putting all of my weight into trying to pry it away from the car. I then went through old threads and found a Toolpants suggestion to reach through the crack in the clamshell, take the clip off of the piston that holds it to the clamshell, and then pry the piston off of the clamshell. Since I could barely fit my arm through the crack in the clamshell, this was no fun as well. I tried prying to piston off with both my bare hands and a long flat head screwdriver but had no luck. I also read someone that had gently pulled the "stuck" side of the clamshell up to the same level of the clamshell side that worked for easier work access. I tried this but that clamshell side did not move up evenly but instead was tilting and was forcing the wing that wraps around towards the passenger side door to point downwards, which it never does in normal operation. I still feel that my best option at this point is to get the piston off of the raised side of the clamshell so that I can at least press the clamshell down into its normal resting position and drive the car without it looking like some type of horror movie reject. Wish me luck.

phapha:

Good luck :)

The reason you are having so much difficulty with removing the black hydraulic pushrod is because at the point of travel at which the clamshell finds itself there is a LOT of pressure exerted on the support arm by the force of the hydraulic pushrod. That's how the system keeps tension on the clamshell so it doesn't flap around when down.

There is one more way to get the hydraulic pushrod off. It involves unscrewing the opposite side of the steel ball onto which the pushrod is pressed. IIRC you can slip in a THIN 14mm open end wrench in there and get a very few degrees of rotation, but it's sufficient movement to loosen it and then get it off.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

Thanks again Maurice. I was able to get both undone. I am going to do my best to keep this thread updated for anyone who comes after me with the same problem. I could not for the life of me get the one ball joint undone by reaching backwards through my roll hoops and just applying pressure with my hands. After a lot of maneuvering I was able to work a large flat head back there and use it to pry the ball joint off. With that, I was able to pull the clamshell up enough that my wife could flip the bottom of the convertible top up (it is very nice to have a helper for this step. After that it was a piece of cake to get the clips off and push the pushrods off of their connection with the clamshell. As someone in another thread noted, one of the pushrods popped off immediately after removing the clip as it seemed as though it was under significant pressure. The other had to be pushed away from its connection but it is easy to do so with the movement available to you once the top is flipped up. After that I was finally able to move the clamshell manually and thus was able to lower it. The goal for today was not to fix the situation entirely but rather just to get my car back into drivable format. My clamshell might have a tiny tiny crease in it but if so it is only visible when light passes directly over it. It is not noticable otherwise.

Maurice, Toolpants, or anyone else. I really gave the unbroken cable heck trying to get it off its contact point on the car. I am afraid that I may have stretched the cable or otherwise compromised its strength. Should I preemptively order one to replace that one as well in addition to replacing the broken cable?

[1schoir]

Thanks again Maurice. I was able to get both undone. I am going to do my best to keep this thread updated for anyone who comes after me with the same problem. I could not for the life of me get the one ball joint undone by reaching backwards through my roll hoops and just applying pressure with my hands. After a lot of maneuvering I was able to work a large flat head back there and use it to pry the ball joint off. With that, I was able to pull the clamshell up enough that my wife could flip the bottom of the convertible top up (it is very nice to have a helper for this step. After that it was a piece of cake to get the clips off and push the pushrods off of their connection with the clamshell. As someone in another thread noted, one of the pushrods popped off immediately after removing the clip as it seemed as though it was under significant pressure. The other had to be pushed away from its connection but it is easy to do so with the movement available to you once the top is flipped up. After that I was finally able to move the clamshell manually and thus was able to lower it. The goal for today was not to fix the situation entirely but rather just to get my car back into drivable format. My clamshell might have a tiny tiny crease in it but if so it is only visible when light passes directly over it. It is not noticable otherwise.

Maurice, Toolpants, or anyone else. I really gave the unbroken cable heck trying to get it off its contact point on the car. I am afraid that I may have stretched the cable or otherwise compromised its strength. Should I preemptively order one to replace that one as well in addition to replacing the broken cable?

phapha:

Definitely keep everyone updated. I'm sure there will be some nuggets here that will help others in the future.

If you are referring to having stretched the inner speedometer type cable, as long as it hasn't come unwound at all, it should be fine. You can test it by inserting the end that was inserted into the side of the electric motor into a cordless drill and spinning the cable to see how "instantly" the V-lever moves in either direction. If one direction has even a slightly faster reaction than the other side, that's an indication that the inner cable may have come unwound and thus should be replaced.

Since you are getting very familiar with the workings of the drive mechanisms for the top :king: , if you don't mind spending the extra money for a new cable, it will provide you peace of mind and you can always keep that one as a spare for emergencies.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

Update: so I was incorrect. I misread and assumed that there was only 1 connection to the top that needs to be undone. In reality there are 2, for a grand total of 3 connections that must be undone on each side so that the top and clamshell can operate manually. The cable broke on me only holds the bottom of the clamshell down apparently which begs the question: why did it snap? It doesn't seem that it is under any pressure. Although I assumed that this was the root of my problem it seems that I have not yet found it. Furthermore, as you can see from the pictures below, my car has the redcapped connections as opposed to the white, which is odd since I believed from my research that my 2000 would have the updated hardware. Furthermore, I had the top replaced under warranty in 2003 for a wear issue and assumed again that they would replace the hardware when replacing a top, but apparently they do not. Below are pictures of the snapped connection and my redcapped wonders.

[1schoir]

Update: so I was incorrect. I misread and assumed that there was only 1 connection to the top that needs to be undone. In reality there are 2, for a grand total of 3 connections that must be undone on each side so that the top and clamshell can operate manually. The cable broke on me only holds the bottom of the clamshell down apparently which begs the question: why did it snap? It doesn't seem that it is under any pressure. Although I assumed that this was the root of my problem it seems that I have not yet found it. Furthermore, as you can see from the pictures below, my car has the redcapped connections as opposed to the white, which is odd since I believed from my research that my 2000 would have the updated hardware. Furthermore, I had the top replaced under warranty in 2003 for a wear issue and assumed again that they would replace the hardware when replacing a top, but apparently they do not. Below are pictures of the snapped connection and my redcapped wonders.

phapha:

The broken cable that you show in the photo does not hold the clamshell down. It keeps tension on the back of the convertible top and is attached on one end to a steel ball under the rear main bow and on the other end to a steel ball that is mounted on an adjusting mechanism attached to the body of the car just past the edge of the opening for the engine compartment. A number of posters have reported those breaking "for no reason" and more than once. Maybe they were just too tightly adjusted.

With respect to the red plastic ball cups, you didn't say whether you are the original owner of the car. Also, the dealer may have had leftover stock and "what you don't know won't hurt you" may have been their motto.

One last point. It's hard to tell from your first photo, but it looks like the convertible top transmission cover (under the V-lever) may have sliced into your foam liner that serves as a drain tray for the convertible top well. I have drawn a red arrow where you should look to make sure it has not been sliced or torn:

Sometimes rain or car wash water will sneak past any tear in the liner and cause you a serious $$$ nightmare in the form of a soaked carpet and worse, a toasted central alarm control module.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

Thank you for the reply. I misspoke and meant to say the bottom of the convertible top as opposed to the clamshell but thanks for correcting me for future readers. Also, so far as I know the integrity of the foam liner has not been breached thus far from my examination although I will go back and have another look to make sure. I have had no issues with water entering the cabin to date. My car is a 2000 base and I am not the original owner, bought it in 2002 from the Miami area and now live in Tennessee. The Porsche dealership that did the top replacement is a dealer in Memphis that I have read many bad things about on various Porsche boards so I would not be surprised if they slapped old stock on my car. I will keep you and the board updated on what I find.

Would it be advisable to premptively replace the red caps even though they have not broke yet?

Chris

[1schoir]

Thank you for the reply. I misspoke and meant to say the bottom of the convertible top as opposed to the clamshell but thanks for correcting me for future readers. Also, so far as I know the integrity of the foam liner has not been breached thus far from my examination although I will go back and have another look to make sure. I have had no issues with water entering the cabin to date. My car is a 2000 base and I am not the original owner, bought it in 2002 from the Miami area and now live in Tennessee. The Porsche dealership that did the top replacement is a dealer in Memphis that I have read many bad things about on various Porsche boards so I would not be surprised if they slapped old stock on my car. I will keep you and the board updated on what I find.

Would it be advisable to premptively replace the red caps even though they have not broke yet?

Chris

Chris:

What I would do is to replace the the red plastic ball cups with the udpdated white ones and keep the reds as spares. You can buy the white ones without having to buy the entire pushrod, but not from Porsche.

PM me and I'll give you the details on the guy in the Netherlands who sells them.

Regards, Maurice.

[phaphaphooey]

Thank you for the reply. I misspoke and meant to say the bottom of the convertible top as opposed to the clamshell but thanks for correcting me for future readers. Also, so far as I know the integrity of the foam liner has not been breached thus far from my examination although I will go back and have another look to make sure. I have had no issues with water entering the cabin to date. My car is a 2000 base and I am not the original owner, bought it in 2002 from the Miami area and now live in Tennessee. The Porsche dealership that did the top replacement is a dealer in Memphis that I have read many bad things about on various Porsche boards so I would not be surprised if they slapped old stock on my car. I will keep you and the board updated on what I find.

Would it be advisable to premptively replace the red caps even though they have not broke yet?

Chris

Chris:

What I would do is to replace the the red plastic ball cups with the udpdated white ones and keep the reds as spares. You can buy the white ones without having to buy the entire pushrod, but not from Porsche.

PM me and I'll give you the details on the guy in the Netherlands who sells them.

Regards, Maurice.

Today is the first day that I have had to work on my car in several weeks. I probably would have prioritized moreso if this had happened in the middle of summer, but with the weather turning cold I was ok driving top up, although a few afternoons were tempting.

I undid the uclip on both sides of the top motor and pulled both drive cables out of the motor. Both had the correct amount of wire sticking out of the sheath. I gave the driver's side cable a firm tug and it seemed firm. The passenger side, however, was easily pulled out of the protective sheath. It was obviously broken. I have attached a camera phone pic of the broken cable. This is as Maurice predicted since it was the passenger side of the clamshell that would not raise.

Several more questions at this juncture:

I have left the control arm for the top with the red caps connected to the top since they seem intact and since I just needed to be able to raise the clamshell for access to the transmission and whatnot. Is this alright?

Would the transmission cable breaking on the passenger side cause the top motor to make the terrible grinding noise I experienced? I was under the assumption that a new top motor would be needed. Since the both transmission cables are disconnected from the motor, would it be ok to test it by hitting the convertible top button inside the cab? Would this somehow change the position of the gears inside the motor, thus making it very difficult to reinsert the transmission cables?

Finally, what is the name of the first cable that I posted that simply connects to the bottom of the convertible top and holds it down? I am not sure what name to reference when I order a new one.

As always, I am eternally grateful.

Chris

[1schoir]

Today is the first day that I have had to work on my car in several weeks. I probably would have prioritized moreso if this had happened in the middle of summer, but with the weather turning cold I was ok driving top up, although a few afternoons were tempting.

I undid the uclip on both sides of the top motor and pulled both drive cables out of the motor. Both had the correct amount of wire sticking out of the sheath. I gave the driver's side cable a firm tug and it seemed firm. The passenger side, however, was easily pulled out of the protective sheath. It was obviously broken. I have attached a camera phone pic of the broken cable. This is as Maurice predicted since it was the passenger side of the clamshell that would not raise.

Several more questions at this juncture:

I have left the control arm for the top with the red caps connected to the top since they seem intact and since I just needed to be able to raise the clamshell for access to the transmission and whatnot. Is this alright?

Would the transmission cable breaking on the passenger side cause the top motor to make the terrible grinding noise I experienced? I was under the assumption that a new top motor would be needed. Since the both transmission cables are disconnected from the motor, would it be ok to test it by hitting the convertible top button inside the cab? Would this somehow change the position of the gears inside the motor, thus making it very difficult to reinsert the transmission cables?

Finally, what is the name of the first cable that I posted that simply connects to the bottom of the convertible top and holds it down? I am not sure what name to reference when I order a new one.

As always, I am eternally grateful.

Chris

Chris:

1. Leaving the front pushrods (witht the red plastic ball cups) connected is perfectly okay, as long as you are VERY CAREFUL not to tweak the clamshell and thereby causing a crease in the sheetmetal of the clamshell. Believe it or not, the convertible to can operate with only one side actually operating on the front and rear pushrods on that side. The other side will sort of strain and lag behind but will usually still work.

2. It is not likely that your convertible top electric motor is defective or that it made the grinding noise you described. Most likely it was caused by the inner cable on the passenger side either shearing apart or unraveling itself, or that you heard grinding from the gears inside the passenger side transmission or the cable coming undone from where it acts on the transmission.

3. In any case, you can easily eliminate the cause of the grinding noise as coming from the electric motor by spinning the motor with both cables "unplugged" from its sides. There is no problem with testing it by pressing the convertible top button. The female receptacles into which the inner cables get inserted are not geared, and are actually square. At most, you sometimes have to turn the inner cable by hand by 1/16th or 1/8th of a turn so that the square male end of the inner cable mates up with the square female receptacle on the sides of the electric motor.

4. Porsche calls the other cables that you were referring to (from the rear main bow to the adjustable steel ball on the side of the engine compartment) "Tension Rope" or "Cabrio Tension Cable" and the part number is 986 561 191 02 .

Let us know how you make out.

Regards, Maurice.