Okay my engines toast now what

[woodywoodpecker]

Hi, a few post below here says "major white smoke out of pipes" Well had AOS replaced. But coolant is going into the oil and oil is going into the coolant. So the well respected auto mechanics its at tells us it probaly a cracked head gasket or cracked head. Either way it needs a new engine. He says 28 hours in an out and 5 hrs to clean out tubes etc. Plus 14 k for engine (longblock). Total of 20k!!!! We cant do this for more than one reason.

The tech heard there was a technical bullentin put out on the boxter s where the engine block didint meet right with the head but he called a dealer and gave VIN and we are out of warranty , its a 2001 boxter s with just under 50k on it.

I have questions to the board not in any order

1) We are thinking of getting a junkyard engine put in. Has anyone here bought one and for how much approximately?

2) Should we have them drop it just to confirm the issues since it has to be dropped anyways in case its lesser of a problem.

3) Any other options that im missing here?

Thanks

[gristy]

Depending on where you are located, not sure about junkyard but you can get refurbed engines from Sunset Porsche. I was trying to talk myself into an engine swap and he quoted me less than your longblock quote for a 3.4!

I would use it as an excuse to unleash hell!

[Loren]

Exchange price on a Porsche factory rebuilt engine (with two year warranty) is $10,660.69 (MSRP).

And, I think his labor time is quite high too (book time is about 15 hours).

You might want to talk to another shop.

[ouroboros]

1) We are thinking of getting a junkyard engine put in. Has anyone here bought one and for how much approximately?

2) Should we have them drop it just to confirm the issues since it has to be dropped anyways in case its lesser of a problem.

3) Any other options that im missing here?

Thanks

1) http://www.911pcar.com/index.php?page=pors...es_complete.htm

2) Defer to someone with more experience on that one - not sure what you can check and cannot check with the engine in, but the Bentley manual suggests you can get to the head with the engine in.

3) Ebay - engines start at 5K.

Donate your core + cash for a new or reconditioned engine

Get a new/used 996 3.6l !!!

www.986fix.com if you are feeling handy! He's actually producing a M96 engine service manual

There is a thread on indys doing rebuilds on here also

[Chris_in_NH]

1) We are thinking of getting a junkyard engine put in. Has anyone here bought one and for how much approximately?

I've seen Boxster engines on eBay for as low as $1500. eBay is a good source for engines, especially because of the buyer protection. If anything is wrong, if the engine is not as described, etc., you can get your money back. Also, buy the parts and labor warranty wherever you buy the engine. You can usually get a 30-day, 60, 90, 180-day, 1 year, 2 years, etc. The price depends on the length of the warranty. I would think that if anything is going to go wrong, it's going to happen in the first month or two of driving, so maybe the 60- or 90-day would be the most cost-effective. Make sure you get the LABOR (in addition to the 'parts') warranty. Parts may be relatively cheap, but if you have to take an engine out once it's in, you're talking big bucks. I just had a Saab engine removed/installed and it was $1500 to take out the old engine and put in the new one. I believe the labor was $75/hr, so that's 20 hours just as a time estimate for engine-swapping.

2) Should we have them drop it just to confirm the issues since it has to be dropped anyways in case its lesser of a problem.

Only if it needs to be dropped. You may decide to take it somewhere else and you may get a better labor rate if the mechanic takes out the old one AND puts in the new one.

3) Any other options that im missing here?

Yes. Upgrading to a 3.4L (or bigger) engine!! Many of us are just waiting for our old engines to die so we have an excuse to justify buying and installing a bigger engine. Fate is calling. Are you going to answer? ;)

[woodywoodpecker]

1) We are thinking of getting a junkyard engine put in. Has anyone here bought one and for how much approximately?

I've seen Boxster engines on eBay for as low as $1500. eBay is a good source for engines, especially because of the buyer protection. If anything is wrong, if the engine is not as described, etc., you can get your money back. Also, buy the parts and labor warranty wherever you buy the engine. You can usually get a 30-day, 60, 90, 180-day, 1 year, 2 years, etc. The price depends on the length of the warranty. I would think that if anything is going to go wrong, it's going to happen in the first month or two of driving, so maybe the 60- or 90-day would be the most cost-effective. Make sure you get the LABOR (in addition to the 'parts') warranty. Parts may be relatively cheap, but if you have to take an engine out once it's in, you're talking big bucks. I just had a Saab engine removed/installed and it was $1500 to take out the old engine and put in the new one. I believe the labor was $75/hr, so that's 20 hours just as a time estimate for engine-swapping.

2) Should we have them drop it just to confirm the issues since it has to be dropped anyways in case its lesser of a problem.

Only if it needs to be dropped. You may decide to take it somewhere else and you may get a better labor rate if the mechanic takes out the old one AND puts in the new one.

3) Any other options that im missing here?

Yes. Upgrading to a 3.4L (or bigger) engine!! Many of us are just waiting for our old engines to die so we have an excuse to justify buying and installing a bigger engine. Fate is calling. Are you going to answer? ;)

Ebay has two right now both for right around 5k, one has 90 day warranty on block. The other one I didnt notice.

I dont have time due to urgency of getting it fixed as quick as possible so im looking for a short answer on the larger engine options. I understand it needs mods if it were to be done. I guess theres a 3.4 and a 3.6 engine replacement. Any ideas what this job cost?

I have done some research with locals around here and I was told the 20k was high.Theres not many options in seattle for this car.

[Chris_in_NH]

Ebay has two right now both for right around 5k, one has 90 day warranty on block. The other one I didnt notice.

I dont have time due to urgency of getting it fixed as quick as possible so im looking for a short answer on the larger engine options. I understand it needs mods if it were to be done. I guess theres a 3.4 and a 3.6 engine replacement. Any ideas what this job cost?

I have done some research with locals around here and I was told the 20k was high.Theres not many options in seattle for this car.

it needs mods to extract the max power out of the engine, but it may be possible to simply re-program the DME (ECU) to use the new engine while you keep your old headers, exhaust, etc. and you can do these at a later time. i'm not 100% sure on this, but i don't see why you couldn't do it this way.

if you search this forum for '3.4' you will find tons of documentation on the subject. and, if you're going to spend $5K on a 'regular' Boxster engine, you better make sure it's a 3.4L 996 engine!! ;)

seriously, for not much more you can pick up a 3.4L engine.

[Sboxin]

Since you are in Seattle...you might want to call Sunset in Portland to discuss your engine options.

An engine with warranty would seem to make sense in this situation.

There several bad engine sales stories from #bay -- need to be very careful of a "used" engine or even one that is advertised as new from a source you don't know.

Let us know if there is anyway someone one this or other Boxster forums can help you -- there are Boxster people in Seattle. You just need to ask, and be very specific on the information you provide :)

Take care,

Ed

[Sboxin]

"I dont have time due to urgency of getting it fixed as quick as possible..."

So...you have had this car for a month. Is it your daily driver to commute to work, etc?

Its a shame this is all happening while you are trying to get married (on the East coast too)

Who did you buy it from - dealer, private, other? Is there any 30, 60, 90 day warranty?

Who is the mechanic or shop that is currently working on your car - Porsche dealer, Porsche Indi, other?

"You definately have an engine problem, but the solution may be easier than some are telling you. As Chris has said, this could be a head gasket or a cracked head (both let coolant into the oil and/or cylinder).

Porsche dealers now have the OK from PCNA to repair Boxster engines - this means they can get parts to do the repair. Dealers repair cost is usually higher than Independent repair facilities, but they access to more Porsche resources, training etc. Personally I found an excellent Indi to work on our 02 S. Finding a good Indi shop takes time and research. A call to a PCA Board member in your Region would help you a lot.

Loren said:

"You might want to talk to another shop."

Loren has the best advice on this Forum!

Click on "Porsche Parts at Dealer Cost" to get Sunset Auto phone number.

Let us know how we can help?

Take care,

Ed

Edited August 20, 2008 by Sboxin

[woodywoodpecker]

The car was purchased at a dealership 3.5 years ago used in santa monica california.It was an Audi dealership.

Its currently at Autohaus Vick in Bellevue WA they are all Bosch certified techs. They might be over there head a little bit in replacing an engine on this car.There engine is 4000 more anyways.

What they have told me is , theres oil in the antifreeze, there antifreeze in the oil. Theres no codes for loosing compression which might mean a head gasket. He says theres blowby , hes 98% sure it needs a new engine. But they didnt do compression test, they didnt check the oil cooler ( which I understand can cause the same issues I am having) They claim its not the oil cooler because theres blowby? But sunset imports in portland told me its 9 times out of 10 the issue your having is the oil cooler. The water/oil mix thing. It is leaking coolant under rear passenger tire.

Thye want way too much for a new engine anyways. I was told 10600 by someone else new from porsche if it does need one and 1800 labor plus any misc. parts oil , clutch etc. Says it may top out at 15k but thye would determine the problem first.This person says rarely on these cars does the block crack. He only services porsches for 30yrs.

Some other shop wants to do a compression test on the oil coooler, a block comression test to test for hydrocarbons that will determine if it s a head gasket.

I did smell antifreeze in the car while driving. Also the place that has it now said they saw white smoke and even a little blue.

It couldnt just be the heater core right?

Im just trying to feed more info here to see if I can stir anything up.

Thank you

[Sboxin]

You are getting good feedback on your engine problem. Further testing/checking of the "oil cooler" sounds like a good route to take. I hadn't thought of it, but it does make sense. I was waiting for your follow up reply to talk to our Indi here in Phoenix about your problem -- I'll do that in the AM -- DJ is good at diagnostics. I'll let you know what he says.

The reviews I see about Autohaus Vick are mixed but with 73% Good ratings. The consensus is "Expensive".

I guess I don't know what a "Bosch Certified Tech" is???

I'm glad you talked to Sunset Auto in Portland. If I were in your shoes I might arrange to take the Boxster down there, just for the peace of mind. I will continue to research Seattle area shops through the other Boxster forums (PPBB, etc.) FYI, I learned a long time ago to seek out the BEST resource you can find in a reasonable geographic area to solve your problems (ours was a son's medical situation living in a small town) -- don't settle for less.

More later,

Take care,

Ed

Ed (Arizona) on PPBB you can see our profile...

[woodywoodpecker]

You are getting good feedback on your engine problem. Further testing/checking of the "oil cooler" sounds like a good route to take. I hadn't thought of it, but it does make sense. I was waiting for your follow up reply to talk to our Indi here in Phoenix about your problem -- I'll do that in the AM -- DJ is good at diagnostics. I'll let you know what he says.

The reviews I see about Autohaus Vick are mixed but with 73% Good ratings. The consensus is "Expensive".

I guess I don't know what a "Bosch Certified Tech" is???

I'm glad you talked to Sunset Auto in Portland. If I were in your shoes I might arrange to take the Boxster down there, just for the peace of mind. I will continue to research Seattle area shops through the other Boxster forums (PPBB, etc.) FYI, I learned a long time ago to seek out the BEST resource you can find in a reasonable geographic area to solve your problems (ours was a son's medical situation living in a small town) -- don't settle for less.

More later,

Take care,

Ed

Ed (Arizona) on PPBB you can see our profile...

Thanks Ed, thats really nice. We are going to send it to Redmond European in the morning where they will do a block compression test an a oil cooler compression test. Then diagnose from there. Thye alos run dye through the engine.

[Beelzy]

Those mecahnics are wasting your time and money. A simple compression test will reveal the suspected blown head gasket.

That's what I think it is. The oil cooler doesn't compute for me.

[Westcoaster]

Isn't Barrier Porsche the closet dealer to you?

Edited August 21, 2008 by Westcoaster

[woodywoodpecker]

Isn't Barrier Porsche the closet dealer to you?

I believe theres on in bellevue and seattle, one is called barrier. Im taking it to a place that specializes in three makes , one is porsche.Looking for them to tell me what it is before I make and decisions. This first place is costing me 150 that its at now.Thye just tell me I need a new engine.

[juniinc]

Barrier in Bellevue & Larson in Tacoma.

it is rare to see a cracked cylinder liner for those models after 2000 but sounds a lot like it.

Yes, u can get to the head with engine still in the car.

Approximately 23 hrs for both head gaskets with standard tranny, a bit more with an auto trans

A good indy should be able to do it for about $2000 +machine shop cost+parts, if it is a blown head gasket.

Edited August 21, 2008 by juniinc

[Sboxin]

Woody,

I spoke to our Indi tech -- most likely cracked cylinder, head, or gasket rather than oil/coolant cooler -- BUT, all these can be tested to determine the right failure. It sounds like Redmonds will do the tests for you and determine the correct failure.

Our guy has replaced 3 Boxster engines with wrecking yard products with success (so far). Be sure the supplier does a leak down test and the installer replicates the leak down numbers. Even with that there can be some problems if the previous engine has been mistreated and overheated (DJ had one (not a Boxster) come apart on the Dyno and blew oil and coolant everywhere :-))

If you were the original owner PCNA might do something to help you (like pay half on the rebuilt engine), but I have heard they are hesitant on 2nd, 3rd owners because of the lack of service documentation. With under 50K miles it is a shame for this to happen to you. This particular engine design is becoming notorious :censored:

If we still have ours when the engine goes I will be putting in a 3.6 and make a fun DE car. Or, maybe just sell the house and buy a 2009 997. :D

Keep in touch, :cheers:

Ed

[woodywoodpecker]

Barrier in Bellevue & Larson in Tacoma.

it is rare to see a cracked cylinder liner for those models after 2000 but sounds a lot like it.

Yes, u can get to the head with engine still in the car.

Approximately 23 hrs for both head gaskets with standard tranny, a bit more with an auto trans

A good indy should be able to do it for about $2000 +machine shop cost+parts, if it is a blown head gasket.

When I dropped off at Redmond European he said by looking at dipstick he didint see any water. Its obvious theres oil in the antifreeze though.

When you say cracked cylinder liner do you mean block or head ? or did you mean a piston?

I was told by a shop if it was head cracked it would be a 3000 part and about 3k in labor. Head gasket about 3 grand for all. The place its at now would rather drop the engine to work on it since he says thye come out pretty easy and the time it would take to try and do it through the top might just equal out due to it being harder to work on in the car? I dont know this place had a bunch of porsches there which helps the comfort level and only 2 audis that I saw. He alos said that he has never seen a block crack on anything but 98 and 99 so never on an 01.

My fingers are crossed its not the block.

[Sboxin]

Barrier in Bellevue & Larson in Tacoma.

it is rare to see a cracked cylinder liner for those models after 2000 but sounds a lot like it.

Yes, u can get to the head with engine still in the car.

Approximately 23 hrs for both head gaskets with standard tranny, a bit more with an auto trans

A good indy should be able to do it for about $2000 +machine shop cost+parts, if it is a blown head gasket.

When I dropped off at Redmond European he said by looking at dipstick he didint see any water. Its obvious theres oil in the antifreeze though.

When you say cracked cylinder liner do you mean block or head ? or did you mean a piston?

I was told by a shop if it was head cracked it would be a 3000 part and about 3k in labor. Head gasket about 3 grand for all. The place its at now would rather drop the engine to work on it since he says thye come out pretty easy and the time it would take to try and do it through the top might just equal out due to it being harder to work on in the car? I dont know this place had a bunch of porsches there which helps the comfort level and only 2 audis that I saw. He alos said that he has never seen a block crack on anything but 98 and 99 so never on an 01.

My fingers are crossed its not the block.

Woody,

...not the piston...either crack in the cylinder (which is part of the 'crankcase') or head, or the gasket between.

DJ says they can do a coolant pressure test and locate where the coolant is going (you said you added some over the past 2 weeks). You can see the engine diagrams at Pelican ( http://www.pelicanparts.com/PartsLookup/HT...-00-Frame4.htm)

IIWM -- I wouldn't let them take the engine out of the car ($$$) until they give you a correct diagnosis!!

Ed

[juniinc]

Yes, they need to perform a coolant pressure test!

[Sboxin]

"When I dropped off at Redmond European he said by looking at dipstick he didint see any water. Its obvious theres oil in the antifreeze though."

Question: Did you drive the car from one place to the other??

Does it run and not smoke??

Ed :cheers:

juniinc: What do you know about Redmonds?

Edited August 21, 2008 by Sboxin

[juniinc]

I have no experience with Redmond.

But Im just curious that after AOS wasreplaced if someone actually did perform a leak down test? or they are just assuming cause it's still smoking?

There are many causes for the type of white smoke.

"If it is a very dense white smoke with an acrid odor, then it is due to coolant burning in a cylinder when the engine is first started. The cause could be a seeping head gasket which allows coolant to accumulate in a cylinder when the engine sits unused for a couple of hours. Diagnosis is usually done by a combination of cooling system pressure testing and cylinder leakdown testing.

Another cause would be worn valve guides and seals. If the valve guides in the engine are worn, it will allow a tiny amount of engine oil to seep down the guides and pool below the heads of the valves when the enigne is not operated for several hours. Upon startup, the accumulated oil will be drawn into the cylinders and burned. The amount of oil involved is very small, typically with worn valve guides you do not notice any measureable oil consumption on the dipstick; a couple drops of burning oil makes a LOT of smoke. Oil smoke is not bright white, but is more of a grayish-white color and smells somewhat like burned oil."

[woodywoodpecker]

"When I dropped off at Redmond European he said by looking at dipstick he didint see any water. Its obvious theres oil in the antifreeze though."

Question: Did you drive the car from one place to the other??

Does it run and not smoke??

Ed :cheers:

juniinc: What do you know about Redmonds?

No we didint drive it. It was loaded on a flatbed. The place before said they still saw smoke. They mentioned white and blue but they may been blowing smoke up my u know what.

I was reffered to Redmonds by a owner out here of Woodinville sports Cars . Redmonds has been in business for 35 years.Was told it was an honest shop and does good work and knows what thye are doing.

[woodywoodpecker]

I have no experience with Redmond.

But Im just curious that after AOS wasreplaced if someone actually did perform a leak down test? or they are just assuming cause it's still smoking?

There are many causes for the type of white smoke.

"If it is a very dense white smoke with an acrid odor, then it is due to coolant burning in a cylinder when the engine is first started. The cause could be a seeping head gasket which allows coolant to accumulate in a cylinder when the engine sits unused for a couple of hours. Diagnosis is usually done by a combination of cooling system pressure testing and cylinder leakdown testing.

Another cause would be worn valve guides and seals. If the valve guides in the engine are worn, it will allow a tiny amount of engine oil to seep down the guides and pool below the heads of the valves when the enigne is not operated for several hours. Upon startup, the accumulated oil will be drawn into the cylinders and burned. The amount of oil involved is very small, typically with worn valve guides you do not notice any measureable oil consumption on the dipstick; a couple drops of burning oil makes a LOT of smoke. Oil smoke is not bright white, but is more of a grayish-white color and smells somewhat like burned oil."

There wasnt a compression test. The shop that replaced the AOS wasnt what I expected. I told him a few forums thought it may be the AOS. So he assumed I wanted it replaced instead of diagnosing. There computer cant talk to porsches. I was very upset.

The smoke to a novice eye is white. In the car it smells like antifreeze burning. When the smoke came out first time at the end of pipe tips it was residue of liquid which to me seemed like oil. There is very much presence of oil in the antifreeze filler tank.

[JP-"S"]

Do yourself a BIG favor take it to Gerber and make sure Charles D works on it. There is no one I have met that knows these motors more in and out. He has worked at the local Pcar dealer and was there main engine R&R person.

http://www.gerbermotorsport.com/

Edited August 22, 2008 by JP-"S"