Boxster engine rebuilds

[Jake Raby]

Absolutely.. I sold my first engine to a paying customer at age 13... Being a car nut myself it's pretty easy to put myself in the place of the purchaser when prioritizing developments.

The 3.2>>3.6 has been the engine that has gotten the most response thus far, and we weren't expecting that as much because the 3.2 engines are newer and don't fail as frequently.

[ouroboros]

Jake,

I guess my comment is probably more relevant to the average guy maybe preferring the Porsche recon route to a third party rebuild, which looked around the same price.

But I love your concept of education/parts so you can DIY. And I also accept those that race etc would prefer the engine improvement route - If mine goes I would prefer this route also. I see it's also looking likely the recon supply will dry up.

One issue for alot of the guys not in the US, is that if you are out of warranty it costs alot to ship engines/cores around the world (I shipped a 3.6 from the US to the UAE so I know from experience!). Your concept would surely save us a stack by allowing us to only ship parts where possible.

Absolutely.. I sold my first engine to a paying customer at age 13... Being a car nut myself it's pretty easy to put myself in the place of the purchaser when prioritizing developments.

The 3.2>>3.6 has been the engine that has gotten the most response thus far, and we weren't expecting that as much because the 3.2 engines are newer and don't fail as frequently.

[Jake Raby]

Jake,

I guess my comment is probably more relevant to the average guy maybe preferring the Porsche recon route to a third party rebuild, which looked around the same price.

But I love your concept of education/parts so you can DIY. And I also accept those that race etc would prefer the engine improvement route - If mine goes I would prefer this route also. I see it's also looking likely the recon supply will dry up.

One issue for alot of the guys not in the US, is that if you are out of warranty it costs alot to ship engines/cores around the world (I shipped a 3.6 from the US to the UAE so I know from experience!). Your concept would surely save us a stack by allowing us to only ship parts where possible.

Absolutely.. I sold my first engine to a paying customer at age 13... Being a car nut myself it's pretty easy to put myself in the place of the purchaser when prioritizing developments.

The 3.2>>3.6 has been the engine that has gotten the most response thus far, and we weren't expecting that as much because the 3.2 engines are newer and don't fail as frequently.

The Porsche program won't be around forever, especially for the early cars. The early Boxsters are already 12 years old and its a wonder that the factory has supported them as long as they have.

I would certainly rather offer training and engine component kits for the stock engines than to be in the business of supplying stock rebuilt engines.

Where we want to go is performance... Thats what demands a level of assembly that only a professional can offer that has developed a series of components and precedures to attain.

We have been forced to work with bone stock engines that only feature reliability and longevity upgrades to this point as we must learn from these stock engines are a must for us to interface with through the critical initial stages. This is so we can learn about them as comprehensively as possible and offer the best training and components based upon the data we have collected and our personal experiences.

We'll be offering stock rebuilds for at least the next couple of years as turn key complete dyno tested units.

[70Sixter]

I'm not re-reading this whole thread again to check, but has anyone mentioned the phrase "matching numbers."

I intend to keep my Box long enuf for that to be important. If I live long enuf, that is.

[Jake Raby]

No one has been concerned with that... Those who are can wait a tad longer and have us update THEIR core engine, avoiding a "core" replacement. This would maintain the original engine the car came from the factory with. Our mods are all internal and won't be notable from the outside.

[PTEC]

I'm not re-reading this whole thread again to check, but has anyone mentioned the phrase "matching numbers."

I intend to keep my Box long enuf for that to be important. If I live long enuf, that is.

As far as most M96.03 and M96.23 engined cars go, the phrase "matching numbers" equates to "ticking timebomb." That is unless of course the original engine has already been rebuild with the updated intermediate shaft. I personally think as others have said in this thread the way to go is a reman engine. You get all of Porsche's latest and greatest parts and a two year warranty on it all.

Edited September 11, 2008 by PTEC

[Q-Ship986]

I'm not re-reading this whole thread again to check, but has anyone mentioned the phrase "matching numbers."

I intend to keep my Box long enuf for that to be important. If I live long enuf, that is.

As far as most M96.03 and M96.23 engined cars go, the phrase "matching numbers" equates to "ticking timebomb." That is unless of course the original engine has already been rebuild with the updated intermediate shaft. I personally think as others have said in this thread the way to go is a reman engine. You get all of Porsche's latest and greatest parts and a two year warranty on it all.

What is the updated intermediate shaft? I missed that somewhere. --Brian

[glenn986s]

yes, some areas [very limited] of the boxster engine can indeed be improved upon.

However, the glaring and still remaining weak-design areas of rheinmetall and kolbenschmidt still remain -I sincerely doubt that anyone [anywhere] is undertaking the task of, nor is there any substantiated evidence to support an undertaking of properly redesigning and re-casting the cylinder heads and/or crankcases/lokasil sleeves; it makes no sense to improve only part of a flawed system design. -a system is only as strong as its weakest link.

All the best,

Glenn

[jmatta]

All this is intriguing to read, as the motor in the Boxster appears to be the weakest link. I keep coming back to the 3.2 to 3.6 conversion for my S...time to start putting some extra $ away, even though the car has but 15k miles on it; you never know.

Thanks Jake!

Edited September 12, 2008 by jmatta

[glenn986s]

with the exception of the gt3, the 3.2 and 3.6 boxster/911 engines are essentially the same design with less-than high quality crankcases and heads.

[Jake Raby]

yes, some areas [very limited] of the boxster engine can indeed be improved upon.

However, the glaring and still remaining weak-design areas of rheinmetall and kolbenschmidt still remain -I sincerely doubt that anyone [anywhere] is undertaking the task of, nor is there any substantiated evidence to support an undertaking of properly redesigning and re-casting the cylinder heads and/or crankcases/lokasil sleeves; it makes no sense to improve only part of a flawed system design. -a system is only as strong as its weakest link.

All the best,

Glenn

The sleeves are a done deal. The process we have perfected with our partnership with LN Engineering has taken care of the cylinder deficiencies.

The issues with less than adequate cases that are porous are very sparse compared to the cylinder issues and at this point aren't impacting the program very much at all. To date we have only seen a few heads that were damaged beyond repair/ update and those were limited to the 3.2 and 3.4 engines. if the program continues to flourish we'll be casting and producing our own replacement heads using CNC technology, but at the current time these are not a necessity.

[geoff]

I went up to Ventura yesterday for the German Auto Fest, which prior to this year was an annual local get together for showing off cars and vendors to hawk their wares to everyone who drinks the Porsche Kool-Aid. This year's show was poorly advertised and very few vendors in attendance, but LN Engineering was there. Since the event was so sparsely attended, I had a chance to talk with the woman at the booth for about 20 minutes without interruption. Here's a summary of the interesting points and my observations of their parts

Her comments, based on my memory of the discussion (caveat - I don't know much about engines or engine technologies, and they are magical contraptions as far as I'm concerned):

• There are a lot of plastic parts inside the M96 engines, much more than anyone would expect, and many are potential failure points
  
• It doesn't seem to matter if the cars are driven hard or babied. There's a high correlation between not driving the cars and engine failures. If the cars sit, the engines are much more likely to fail
  
• The stock oil filter elements do a poor job. They sell an adapter that lets you use spin-on oil filters that do are much more effective. She specifically mentioned the Mobil-1 spin on filter as working well (don't remember the other brand)
  
• They have a part to increase the oil capacity of the engine
  
• The quality of cast parts in the engines is pretty poor.Their machined billet replacement parts are significantly stronger than the OEM cast ones they replace.
  
• There are many failure points for the IMS, starting with the bolt on the end. Their replacement IMS has much more bearing surfaces than the OEM part and shouldn't fail. Their IMS bolts are more than twice as strong as the OEM ones
  
• Replacement IMS are available on a replacement basis now
  
• They are working on more replacement parts and tools, and are planning training programs for engine rebuilders
  
• Once an engine disintegrates, it's usually too late to upgrade to their improved parts. Their parts are intended to rebuild functioning engines
  
• Not sure if the bored-out 2.7 to 2.9 engine will pass smog inspections. Not something they have to worry about where they are located.
  
• During their remanufacturing process, the cylinders are bored out and the Nickie liners are put into place. This is the same technology and materials used successfully on air cooled Porsche engines
  
• Even though the stock thermostats are rated to 180°, they have found they run hotter than rated. They sell a lower temperature thermostat option
  
• They have adapters for external oil coolers
  
• Porsche is out of remanufactured 2.5 engines
  

If you don't like any of these comments, or disagree, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. Here are my observations:

• They are in the business of selling parts, so no way for me to judge relative quality of oil filter technologies. I didn't correlate against expertise on BITOG
  
• The bolt on the end of the IMS looks really small for something in an engine under a lot of load (or even a little load)
  
• The end of the IMS is a cast component. The surface finish on the casting looks like something you would expect to see in a low quality Chinese knockoff. I don't know if this is what cast engine parts look like, but theirs looked like a piece of art by comparison
  
• Fit and finish of their parts were vastly better than the OEM ones. They can clearly manufacture high quality items (these were display items, so don't know what the production items for sale will look like for sure)
  
• I thought I read somewhere Porsche has more 2.5 available
  
• They were also showing replacement pistons and connecting rods, which also looked very well made. We didn't really talk about them
  
• They had part of a Boxster engine on display, and while it looked nice with their Nickie cylinder liners, I have no idea if it really was a Boxster engine
  

[Jake Raby]

I will reply to your post in detail below. LN engineering and I have been working exclusively together on the Boxster and 996 engine development from the beginning and for the past decade with air-cooled Porsches as well. I was going to be in attendance at the GAF myself, but when the show was canceled earlier in the year I made alternative plans (instructional video filming) that made my presence an impossibility.

I went up to Ventura yesterday for the German Auto Fest, which prior to this year was an annual local get together for showing off cars and vendors to hawk their wares to everyone who drinks the Porsche Kool-Aid. This year's show was poorly advertised and very few vendors in attendance, but LN Engineering was there. Since the event was so sparsely attended, I had a chance to talk with the woman at the booth for about 20 minutes without interruption. Here's a summary of the interesting points and my observations of their parts

That was Charles' Wife, Tammy.

Her comments, based on my memory of the discussion (caveat - I don't know much about engines or engine technologies, and they are magical contraptions as far as I'm concerned):

There are a lot of plastic parts inside the M96 engines, much more than anyone would expect, and many are potential failure points

It doesn't seem to matter if the cars are driven hard or babied. There's a high correlation between not driving the cars and engine failures. If the cars sit, the engines are much more likely to fail

There are lots of plastic parts internally and they are breaking. We are eliminating as many of these as possible. Some of them aren't easy to replace with a higher grade component, especially those in the oiling system.

The stock oil filter elements do a poor job. They sell an adapter that lets you use spin-on oil filters that do are much more effective. She specifically mentioned the Mobil-1 spin on filter as working well (don't remember the other brand)

They have a part to increase the oil capacity of the engine

We have lots of oil system update components in the final stages of completion and testing, some of these are items currently offered by others that we have re-designed and others have originated from our partnered efforts from scratch. The oiling system is causing some failures and we are positive of this.

The quality of cast parts in the engines is pretty poor.Their machined billet replacement parts are significantly stronger than the OEM cast ones they replace.

Exactly.

Next post

[Jake Raby]

There are many failure points for the IMS, starting with the bolt on the end. Their replacement IMS has much more bearing surfaces than the OEM part and shouldn't fail. Their IMS bolts are more than twice as strong as the OEM ones

Replacement IMS are available on a replacement basis now

They are working on more replacement parts and tools, and are planning training programs for engine rebuilders

This is the program that we are working on together. The training and replacement/ update parts and instructional DVDs on how to use them are just around the corner for release.

Once an engine disintegrates, it's usually too late to upgrade to their improved parts. Their parts are intended to rebuild functioning engines

Thats according to how bad it fails, cylinder failures are generally 90% repairable, but starting with an engine that only has symptoms is much better than one that has fully failed.

Not sure if the bored-out 2.7 to 2.9 engine will pass smog inspections. Not something they have to worry about where they are located.

We don't have to worry about it either.. I don't plan on selling the engines in states that would be questionable as to the legality of the mods, thats a hassle that we don't have time to contend with, even if it results in lost sales.

During their remanufacturing process, the cylinders are bored out and the Nickie liners are put into place. This is the same technology and materials used successfully on air cooled Porsche engines

We have worked together to hone this material and the assembly processes on the air-cooled models as well. I used the first set of their air-cooled cylinders in 1999 and have used hundreds since.

Even though the stock thermostats are rated to 180°, they have found they run hotter than rated. They sell a lower temperature thermostat option

Thats something we are testing now and we believe will dramatically increase the life of OE non upgraded engines that generally fail at higher water temps and oil temps.

They have adapters for external oil coolers

And these are sold through our online store, along with the other components that comprise the updated oil system.

Porsche is out of remanufactured 2.5 engines

They were, but they did another run. There are currently 16 engines in the system for the 2.5. (thats the number as of last Thursday)

If you don't like any of these comments, or disagree, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. Here are my observations:

They are in the business of selling parts, so no way for me to judge relative quality of oil filter technologies. I didn't correlate against expertise on BITOG

Together my Company and LN Engineering do a tremendous amount of R&D. You can rest assured that anything we sell is fully tested and being used in our own test vehicles, else it won't be sold. At my facility we have a full test lab and to either of us solving the issues that Porsche created are much more rewarding than making a single dollar- we did this with the air-cooled engines and are using the same intensity to do this with the Boxster and 996.

[geoff]

Jake - thanks for the comments

Now I'm wondering - if somebody has, say, a 2001 2.7 engine that's running fine, and the IMS is replaced with your new and improved version. Does that provide the greatest potential for avoiding catastrophic engine failure? Or just shifting the likelihood to another part that's nearly as likely to fail? In other words, if my engine has a 50/50 chance of disintegrating before 100K miles (and I'm just pulling odds out of thin air), how much does upgrading the IMS improve my odds (based on your expertise, engines you've seen, etc.)?

[txhokie4life]

Her comments, based on my memory of the discussion (caveat - I don't know much about engines or engine technologies, and they are magical contraptions as far as I'm concerned):

There are a lot of plastic parts inside the M96 engines, much more than anyone would expect, and many are potential failure points

It doesn't seem to matter if the cars are driven hard or babied. There's a high correlation between not driving the cars and engine failures. If the cars sit, the engines are much more likely to fail

There are lots of plastic parts internally and they are breaking. We are eliminating as many of these as possible. Some of them aren't easy to replace with a higher grade component, especially those in the oiling system.

Still waiting to have my mechanic pull the engine out of my 3.2 S and confirm the need for re-lining -- but the POR is to use LNEngineering.

While I have the engine out I plan to attack all the known issues with the engine. Liners, IMS, Timing Chains.

Do you replacements identified for the plastic pieces? Or suggest alternatives?

I kind of fell like while the engine is out -- fix everything you can.

If I am having the Liners, Pistons, and IMS taking care of by LNEngineering, what else would you recommend

that my mechanic and I attack/replace.

thanks,

M

[Jake Raby]

First off, have your mechanic become one of our authorized installers, its a simple process that will make our support and assistance that much better.

I am working on the creation of an "upgrade package" that has all the contents needed to bullet proff any current engine including the block work, IMS bearing upgrade, etc, etc. These will be posted next week.

Replacing the IMS now is always good because a failure can wipe the whole engine out, BUT you can also experience a D chunk failure after the IMS updates, so while the engine is apart the smart consumer will upgrade the liners and the IM at the same time, doing this means that the labor costs for assembly are the same.

Having a liner failure after an IMS upgrade would suck really badly. This is the reason why ALL our engines come with ALL the upgrades as standard. You may be able to buy the whole engine from the source for less than your mechanic will charge, something to explore.

[silver arrow]

I you have the list of upgrades yet.

[txhokie4life]

I you have the list of upgrades yet.

Long story short -- the problem turned out to be a sheared water pump shaft which allowed the engine to overheat

causing the freeze plug in one of the cylinder heads to blow -- which caused the coolant to mix with the oil.

So I didn't require the new liners.

I did get the LnEngineering IMS upgrade.

Replacing just about everything else that isn't nailed down, from bearings, to all timing chains, hoses, belts, AOS,

seals, rings, clutch, brake pads, and battery. Everything stock except for brake pads.

Will be putting it all back together starting next week.

Mike

Edited November 26, 2008 by txhokie4life

[silver arrow]

I you have the list of upgrades yet.

Long story short -- the problem turned out to be a sheared water pump shaft which allowed the engine to overheat

causing the freeze plug in one of the cylinder heads to blow -- which caused the coolant to mix with the oil.

So I didn't require the new liners.

I did get the LnEngineering IMS upgrade.

Replacing just about everything else that isn't nailed down, from bearings, to all timing chains, hoses, belts, AOS,

seals, rings, clutch, brake pads, and battery. Everything stock except for brake pads.

Will be putting it all back together starting next week.

Mike

What did it cost you in parts?

[txhokie4life]

I've got about $4200 into parts at this point.

But that includes brake pads, clutch, all hoses, belts, fluids, etc.

So that includes everything but the interior work.

mike

Edited December 7, 2008 by txhokie4life

[mrrogers]

I went to the Porsche USA website, and sent them an email asking if they would be willing to do a licensing agreement with Subaru to install the Subaru 2.5 boxer engine in place of the Porsche 2.5 boxster engine as a reliability improvement sine the Porsche 2.5 remanufactured engines are out of production and they have issues anyuway. It may make sense to install the Subaru transaxle also. Engine mounts and a wiring harness adaptor would be helpful. The ECU may need to be reprogrammed. I will let you know if I receive a reply.

[txhokie4life]

I went to the Porsche USA website, and sent them an email asking if they would be willing to do a licensing agreement with Subaru to install the Subaru 2.5 boxer engine in place of the Porsche 2.5 boxster engine as a reliability improvement sine the Porsche 2.5 remanufactured engines are out of production and they have issues anyuway. It may make sense to install the Subaru transaxle also. Engine mounts and a wiring harness adaptor would be helpful. The ECU may need to be reprogrammed. I will let you know if I receive a reply.

If you happen to get an email return (which would be surprising to me) -- the answer would undoubtably be no.

Better to ask for an upgrade to a comparable larger bore engine that is still in production. Less integration problems - -and more likely to happen.

mike