Advice Needed

[beach987]

I bought a beautiful 2005 987 with 12400 miles from Carmax about 10 days ago. I have been waiting for my registration to come in and they have been giving the run around. Finally today they indicated that they did not have authorization from the previous owner to sell the car although it appears that a new title was issued 6/2/2008 and I am assuming the new Owner is Carmax. They want the car back and are offering me a similar car in a different color with 23000 miles for the same deal. This is not the same car or an equal deal.

Since it is the weekend, I am not going to be able to reach an attorney until Monday.

Anyone out there have any legal experience or are a lawyer that might be able to offer me some non-binding advice? I am in Florida. Thanks.

Edited June 20, 2008 by beach987

[JeTexas]

Definitely have a lawyer examine everything. It sounds like either someone gave you a really great deal that they weren't supposed to or that there's another leinholder on the car.

[Chuck Jones]

If you have the car...possession is nine points of the law....if you don't have it....then there's a definite reason they want it back and like TEXAS said...most likely you got one hell of a deal and someone hollered HOLY $HIT....look what you just sold the guy....go get it back you idiot!.

Just like going into a supermarket and finding a $50 bottle of wine posted for $10....that was the advertised deal, and they sell it to you for that. It's really going to depend on what stage you are in the sale process, and any language that might be in the contract. The Uniform Commercial Code has a basic rule for what constitutes a sale, or maybe more correctly, an "enforceable sale".....there has to be an offer....acceptance of that offer....and something of value exchanged. If you satisfied those criteria, you probably are on pretty good grounds to push your side of the deal.

I'm do not have training in civil or contract law...I'm a retired cop....but if you made a deal and put money down on the car and they accepted the money...I think you'd "have legal standing" to insist on delivery of the vehicle as agreed in the contract.

Bottom line....I'm not an attorney....and the laws for different states vary....but there is a basic protocol for a sale as I indicated above. Best of luck....hopefully this is a hell of a deal and not a car that they forgot to take the 10 kilos of cocaine out from inside of the rocker panels. :) (Please note disclaimer....IM ONLY KIDDING)

Edited June 20, 2008 by Chuck Jones

[JeTexas]

Good luck.

Edited June 21, 2008 by JeTexas

[beach987]

If you have the car...possession is nine points of the law....if you don't have it....then there's a definite reason they want it back and like TEXAS said...most likely you got one hell of a deal and someone hollered HOLY $HIT....look what you just sold the guy....go get it back you idiot!.

Just like going into a supermarket and finding a $50 bottle of wine posted for $10....that was the advertised deal, and they sell it to you for that. It's really going to depend on what stage you are in the sale process, and any language that might be in the contract. The Uniform Commercial Code has a basic rule for what constitutes a sale, or maybe more correctly, an "enforceable sale".....there has to be an offer....acceptance of that offer....and something of value exchanged. If you satisfied those criteria, you probably are on pretty good grounds to push your side of the deal.

I'm do not have training in civil or contract law...I'm a retired cop....but if you made a deal and put money down on the car and they accepted the money...I think you'd "have legal standing" to insist on delivery of the vehicle as agreed in the contract.

Bottom line....I'm not an attorney....and the laws for different states vary....but there is a basic protocol for a sale as I indicated above. Best of luck....hopefully this is a hell of a deal and not a car that they forgot to take the 10 kilos of cocaine out from inside of the rocker panels. :) (Please note disclaimer....IM ONLY KIDDING)

It was a done deal. Traded another car, financed, papers signed, everything, and I have had the car (and still do) in my possession for 10 days now. Looks like I need an attorney. Thanks.

[sc00ter18]

I work at a used car dealership.... i can tell you that something smells bad.

We dont put a car on the street if we cant do it...... that car was stocked in at carmaxs inventory and in my opinion was undersold to you.

If i was in your situation i will not drive the car back to carmax!

they should bite the bullet and offer compensation to the previous owner if their story is true! its your car now.

good luck

[Chuck Jones]

Before you run off an get one....you might just want to call them and ask them under what circumstances they would like to nullify the deal. You have a contract...signed, sealed, and delivered.....you might advise them that you'd like to settle this deal without an attorney by simply having them honor the contract....OR...you can go get an attorney and hold them liable for the attorney's fees. Undoubtedly they have legal staff on retainer....and will be in touch with him/her.

You might save yourself a little money in attorney's fees if you simply quote the basic tenant of the Commercial Code and ask them how they intend to void an existing contract. YOu may well find that they call King's X and pat you on the back and say "Sorry for the misunderstanding". I always try to work out things with the folks first before taking it to the next level. You might be surprised at how things can be worked out at a lower level before elevating it to the next step.

If they start threatening or flat out refuse...make sure you don't make any statements contrary to your interests....just ask why they are refusing to honor the contract....then if they look like they're goiing to give you a bad time, have an attorney review your contract and write them a letter....the cheapest way out of this without getting too messy or involved.

[White987S]

Before you run off an get one....you might just want to call them and ask them under what circumstances they would like to nullify the deal. You have a contract...signed, sealed, and delivered.....you might advise them that you'd like to settle this deal without an attorney by simply having them honor the contract....OR...you can go get an attorney and hold them liable for the attorney's fees. Undoubtedly they have legal staff on retainer....and will be in touch with him/her.

You might save yourself a little money in attorney's fees if you simply quote the basic tenant of the Commercial Code and ask them how they intend to void an existing contract. YOu may well find that they call King's X and pat you on the back and say "Sorry for the misunderstanding". I always try to work out things with the folks first before taking it to the next level. You might be surprised at how things can be worked out at a lower level before elevating it to the next step.

If they start threatening or flat out refuse...make sure you don't make any statements contrary to your interests....just ask why they are refusing to honor the contract....then if they look like they're goiing to give you a bad time, have an attorney review your contract and write them a letter....the cheapest way out of this without getting too messy or involved.

Great advice, Chuck!

This is an amazing story, please keep us posted, Beach987.

[Tool Pants]

I play a lawyer, in California. If Carmax sells car on consignment and this is California then I know what happens. I had this case for a client a few years ago.

Client left his classic Mustang Boss 302 at the Mustang Ranch for sale on consignment. He then moved out of the area. Mustang Ranch sells parts for old Mustangs and restores them. The owner of the Ranch was also a licensed vehicle dealer.

A few months later client came back and his Mustang was gone. Owner sold the car and was having financial problems and used the money for business expenses. Client though he was protected because he did not give the pink slip to the Mustang Ranch. A dealer does not need the pink slip to transfer title. Title to the Mustang was in someone else's name, and that someone would not part with the Mustang.

This situation is covered by the California Vehicle code. Mustang Ranch was my client's agent. The guy who bought it was an innocent third party. My client's remedy was to sue his dishonest agent for money. I did and got the money, part of which came from the Ranch's bond. The owner of the Ranch was also arrested. The guy who bought the Mustang kept it.

That is the way it is in California for consignment sales.

[beach987]

I play a lawyer, in California. If Carmax sells car on consignment and this is California then I know what happens. I had this case for a client a few years ago.

Client left his classic Mustang Boss 302 at the Mustang Ranch for sale on consignment. He then moved out of the area. Mustang Ranch sells parts for old Mustangs and restores them. The owner of the Ranch was also a licensed vehicle dealer.

A few months later client came back and his Mustang was gone. Owner sold the car and was having financial problems and used the money for business expenses. Client though he was protected because he did not give the pink slip to the Mustang Ranch. A dealer does not need the pink slip to transfer title. Title to the Mustang was in someone else's name, and that someone would not part with the Mustang.

This situation is covered by the California Vehicle code. Mustang Ranch was my client's agent. The guy who bought it was an innocent third party. My client's remedy was to sue his dishonest agent for money. I did and got the money, part of which came from the Ranch's bond. The owner of the Ranch was also arrested. The guy who bought the Mustang kept it.

That is the way it is in California for consignment sales.

Thanks for this.

Question. It appears they (Carmax) have not transfered title nor registration to me. If I have an executed buyers agreement; a finance contract and a Florida Transfer of Registration form that indicates that within 30 days the dealer will transfer registration to me per Florida law, do I legally own the car?

Edited June 21, 2008 by beach987

[Chuck Jones]

Good...you have an opinion from someone who appears qualified...nothing worse than a jailhouse lawyer.

[renzop]

Get your money back from them plus a $200 inconvenience fee and run away. You have posession of the car. You have a signed agreement. You have a strong bargaining position. But they or the original owner have title. You cannot get the car registered so it is really useless to you. Give them back the car but get the money first.

[Gary in BR]

Good luck Beach keep us posted

[fasterjames]

17 years in the automotive business in various forms, mostly training dealers and lenders.

Here is what 'most' likely happened.

Guy can't afford his Boxster anymore because his house in Florida is about to be foreclosed on. He trades in his Boxster at Carmax but because he has so many late payments on his other bills he is now considered a candidate for Secondary/Special Financing (one of my main topics btw). They let him drive off the lot with another vehicle under the assumption that he can get financed (legal in FL) but after weeks of trying, none of the banks will accept him.

In the meantime they cleaned and serviced his trade in (your new Boxster) and put it up for sale. You buy it and drive it around while they are getting more frantic trying to get a bank to buy the other guys loan. Then either they just can't get the loan done or his circumstances change (filed for bankruptcy, lost job, lost income, lost insurance, etc) so now they don't have a sale with the other guy anymore but already sold his trade to you.

Carmax is now faced with several dilemmas: They don't have a deal with him and have wasted lots of time. They sold the trade in vehicle. They have to somehow get his 'new' car back from him. And they have to get your car back from you to give it to the other guy, hoping to keep you in a sale.

I have seen this scenario play out 20 or more times.

Legally you own the car, they just don't want to title it because they are hoping you will give in.

What has probably happened is in order to make the car deal with the first guy they overinflated the trade amount on paper to make it look better to the bank (happens 85% + of the time-ever see the 'Guaranteed Minimum Trade Amount commercials?). Because they sold his trade they now owe him that amount of money or his car back. Obviously they don't want to do this but that's how the game gets played.

If it holds out long enough they would be in contempt of their agreement with you over titling issues.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[beach987]

17 years in the automotive business in various forms, mostly training dealers and lenders.

Here is what 'most' likely happened.

Guy can't afford his Boxster anymore because his house in Florida is about to be foreclosed on. He trades in his Boxster at Carmax but because he has so many late payments on his other bills he is now considered a candidate for Secondary/Special Financing (one of my main topics btw). They let him drive off the lot with another vehicle under the assumption that he can get financed (legal in FL) but after weeks of trying, none of the banks will accept him.

In the meantime they cleaned and serviced his trade in (your new Boxster) and put it up for sale. You buy it and drive it around while they are getting more frantic trying to get a bank to buy the other guys loan. Then either they just can't get the loan done or his circumstances change (filed for bankruptcy, lost job, lost income, lost insurance, etc) so now they don't have a sale with the other guy anymore but already sold his trade to you.

Carmax is now faced with several dilemmas: They don't have a deal with him and have wasted lots of time. They sold the trade in vehicle. They have to somehow get his 'new' car back from him. And they have to get your car back from you to give it to the other guy, hoping to keep you in a sale.

I have seen this scenario play out 20 or more times.

Legally you own the car, they just don't want to title it because they are hoping you will give in.

What has probably happened is in order to make the car deal with the first guy they overinflated the trade amount on paper to make it look better to the bank (happens 85% + of the time-ever see the 'Guaranteed Minimum Trade Amount commercials?). Because they sold his trade they now owe him that amount of money or his car back. Obviously they don't want to do this but that's how the game gets played.

If it holds out long enough they would be in contempt of their agreement with you over titling issues.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Interesting analysis. And this is what I thought might be the case as well. However, I found out the car was titled on June 2, eight days before I bought the car which made for an interesting twist. I have been holding out taking the car back asking that they provide documentation in writing, which they never did. I eventually reported them to the DMV last week.

Today we received a call that they needed us to come up and sign the title into our name. Turns out one party of a pending divorce rightfully sold the car to CARMAX which hacked off the other party who subsequently renewed the title back into their name unbeknownst to CARMAX. CARMAX finally convinced them to sign it back. After we signed it, it officially became ours. Praise God !!!

[stef]

Grats!

[JeTexas]

Glad to hear it worked out for you. Life is stressful enough with out that sort of thing.

[buggy4cars]

I think this should be made into a major motion picture. I couldn't wait to keep scrolling down and see how it all ended!