Clutchless Shifting

[efedor]

I've owned my boxster for 4 years now and I usually shift without the clutch(except first and down shifting). Will there be problems in the future or am I ok since I don't grind the gears or jolt the car when I shift? Am I the only knuckle head that does this?

[Chuck Jones]

I don't know if you're the only knucklehead who does it....but I would imageine that you're certainly part of a small and limited circle of knuckleheads. I used to "speed shift" my old 68 BMW 2002...and as long as you didn't grind the gears, it didn't seem to affect anything....I never had a problem with the clutch back then, but I was 21 and liked living on the edge, and liked showing off a bit too.....I'm a lot older now and really don't think I'd screw around with that procedure in a $100K Porsche. I don't know what that would do to the syncro gears especially on downshifting. I know that you can master the procedure by timing the shift, engine load, and rpm's just right.....but ????

Out of curiosity....why do you choose to speed shift like that? They put a clutch in these things for a reason....

Edited June 20, 2008 by Chuck Jones

[efedor]

I don't speed shift, I shift when the tranny allows me to and thats usually at about 2.5k to 3.5 so it's relatively slow. I do it because I get tired of shifting!. I do not downshift without a clutch.

[Sputter]

I can't say 100% but I don't think you're doing yourself any favours. A clutch is cheaper than a tranny.

I don't speed shift, I shift when the tranny allows me to and thats usually at about 2.5k to 3.5 so it's relatively slow. I do it because I get tired of shifting!. I do not downshift without a clutch.

[rsfeller]

...are you doing it because you can or do you have a theory for doing it?

I agree the clutch is cheaper then the tranny...just because you can do it doesn't mean you should!

[efedor]

HEY, EVERYONE IS TREATING ME LIKE IM A YOUNG PUNK, IM MEARLY ASKING IF IT'S OK TO SHIFT CLUTHLESS ON A BOXSTER, NOT PERMISSION TO DO SO. IM DOING IT BECAUSE THE CAR ALLOWS ME TO,NOT BECAUSE IM SOME IDIOT THAT CAN DO IT.

[Loren]

HEY, EVERYONE IS TREATING ME LIKE IM A YOUNG PUNK, IM MEARLY ASKING IF IT'S OK TO SHIFT CLUTHLESS ON A BOXSTER, NOT PERMISSION TO DO SO. IM DOING IT BECAUSE THE CAR ALLOWS ME TO,NOT BECAUSE IM SOME IDIOT THAT CAN DO IT.

No SHOUTING here please (typing in ALL CAPS).

I don't think anyone here has flamed you - just asked you why.

[Chuck Jones]

Please Sir....pray tell....is there a reason you opt to shift clutchless? We mean no harm and certainly harbor no nefarious intent...and certainly have no desire to raisie your ire...simply a harmless question about why you would want to do so. If it's like Sir Edmond Hillary's explanation of why he wanted to climb Mt. Everest....."Because it's there"....then we can appreciate and understand your position. You certainly don't need nor have you asked for our permission to shift without a clutch....and I'm sorry you have taken offense to the responses. One of my favorite quotes from the old Perry Mason series was....."I withdraw the question".

I need a beer.

[efedor]

As I have a heineken, I apologize for my UPPER CAPS use. Like Mt everest, it's there so climb it, I too feel that way. If I can shift it then I will do so. Am I wrong? ohh well only my wallet will tell. Sorry for the short temper, call it PDS. GOD LOVE AMERICA.

[Chuck Jones]

Now you're cookin' like a regular guy. A beer always seems to settle things down....we banter about here....but none of us have any malice...or if we do, there's usually a mid-course correction. We may joke around a bit and gig each other...but Loren (Site Admin) keeps a pretty close tab on things that might look like they're getting out of hand.

He has a steadfast policy here....No cyber-lynchings allowed.

Good to have you aboard Captn'. I'm having a Negra Modelo....dark beer.

chuck

[ADias]

Direct answer: shifting without the clutch should never be done.

But as you said, it's your car, you can abuse it as you please. This is why I do not usually buy pre-owned manual cars.

[RFM]

Your post makes more than sense ADias.

[efedor]

Got it guys, Thanks

[Richard Hamilton]

There is a certain satisfaction about making a perfect clutchless change, but I would guess that when it isn't quite perfect the synchro will be working overtime.

Get a tip'. ;) ;)

[Glyn]

It is a bit of an art shifting without using the clutch and if you have mastered it so that the gears go in cleanly - ie, you dont need to exert excessive pressure on the gearshift then you are actually preserving your gearbox.

Yes once again my post flies in the face of popular opinion.

OK, In the old days the first gearboxes were straight cut gears and had no syncromesh, they whined like a pig as a result of the straight cut and crashed as they went in gear, the secret was to match the engine revs and the gear box shaft speeds so they went in without crunching, Indeed it is not that long ago when all trucks were like this, certainly in the early 80s, however all trucks now have syncro boxes.

The syncro came about because the gearchange without crunching was an art that not everyone could master and syncros allowed those without any empathy with their vehicles to be able to change without drawing attention to it.

The syncro hub assembly has two baulk rings - these are just tapered rings of brass that move towards the selected gear when the gear shift is moved to a particular gear, the gear also has a taper in which the ring fits, as the gear is selected the two tapers move together the taper slows down or speeds up the rotating shafts within the gearbox which enables the gears to lock together without the gears running over each other (this is the crunching)

The more out of sync the speeds the more the baulk rings have to do to match the rotation speed, of course the rings are designed to do this and will last a very long time so there are no issues with excessive wear.

Pressing the clutch disengages the engine from the gearbox which only leaves the now undriven shafts (that do not have a massive inertia) to speed up or slow down so wear on the baulk rings is at acceptable levels.

Changing gear without the clutch means there is a massive inertia on the drive shafts so extra force on the gear shift is required to force the baulk rings to speed up or slow down not just the shafts but also the engine, if more force than is usual to engage a gear is required when changing gear without clutching then you will induce premature failure of the baulk rings and your syncro hubs so you will need a new gearbox.

If you are changing gear with very light pressure and not using the clutch then you are in harmony with the car, you have developed the art and instinctively know when the engine revs and speed of the car are just right to engage without issues, therefore the speed matching of the shafts means there is no work for the baulk rings to do and there is even less wear.

If you are changing gear perfectly well and your comfotable with it then carry on, you are doing no damage to the gearbox or anything else.

The statement from ADias is without foundation

[Loren]

The statement from ADias is without foundation

Everyone here is entitled to there own opinion. Please respect your fellow members opinions.

There is need to flame other individuals - please re-read the board Guidelines/Rules (that you agreed to when you registered here).

[rsfeller]

We'll you cannot argue with Glyn comments if they are 100% accurate (which I am sure they are!) but it assumes the driver is, as he states, in harmony with the car. Anyone I know who does such shifting regularly grinds them as often as they find them! I believe the challenge is part of the desire for some but the initial poster may very well be a great shifter. I doubt anyone's comments are w/o merit as Glyn speaks from a tech and vulcan point of view and the rest of us are speaking from the human point of view, most humans make errors...a lot.

Based on the fact that humans seldom do anything perfect all the time I think those who feel the danger of wear on the gear box from bad shifting is a valid point still as his Glyn's.

As Glyn states the syncro were created for a reason, and I'm sure most drivers fall into the category of those unable to nail a perfect clutch-less shift 100% of the time. So when some 18 year with a new used Boxster finds this thread and decides to go clutchless he may very well do some damage to his new toy. Glyn's info is a great layman description of what is going on and why.

As a note the quality of the gear box makes a difference. I had a Mazda 626 and it was smooth as butter to do clutchless shifts but my Passat Tdi, Saab 9000 did not like them very much at all!

[efedor]

Thanks for the reply Glyn, that's the kind of answer I was expecting not the slap on the hand don't do it approach stated by others. I never force my gears or grind the box, It would be stupid of me to do on a fine german car like ours. Since I don't race,redline or peel-off or do any crazy thing on my porsche, Im sure It will last a long time. Thanks

[ADias]

Thanks for the reply Glyn, that's the kind of answer I was expecting not the slap on the hand don't do it approach stated by others. I never force my gears or grind the box, It would be stupid of me to do on a fine german car like ours. Since I don't race,redline or peel-off or do any crazy thing on my porsche, Im sure It will last a long time. Thanks

There's nothing wrong about redlining a properly warmed boxer engine. I do it all the time. I do not shift without a clutch though and I do know all about synchros and gear meshing... To each his own.

[Edman]

One of my older cars was a 91 Escort GT 5-speed. I had the car for about 7 years and put almost 100k miles on it (bought it at 41k). I shifted smoothly without the clutch all the time, and when I got rid of the car at 138k miles, it had numerous problems (suspension issues, 2 bad fuel injectors, etc), but the original clutch and transmission were fine. I now do the same in my Boxster. While I VERY occasionally mis-step slightly, I still don't feel I'm doing any damage to the car. Glyn's post confirms that, as far as I'm concerned.

[Glyn]

The statement from ADias is without foundation

Everyone here is entitled to there own opinion. Please respect your fellow members opinions.

There is need to flame other individuals - please re-read the board Guidelines/Rules (that you agreed to when you registered here).

Loren, I am not trying to inflame anything, my statement regarding the post from Adias was that the statement was wrong in that he said :- "Direct answer: shifting without the clutch should never be done"

It was delivered as the be all and end all not as an opinion - and i stand by what i said in that factually it is incorrect.

If i have come across as inflamatory then i appologise.

I tried to answer the original post in a simple terms as possible, i wanted the poster to know the consequences of clutchless shifts if they are done wrong but above all i wanted to answer his question.

If indeed clutchless shifting should never be done then surely the reason for this statement should be added so the poster has something to evaluate.

My post, i believe, set out the pros and cons, i tried to explain what is happening to the components so the poster has an informed viewpoint, my post was not my opinions but a factual reply.

The comment :- "But as you said, it's your car, you can abuse it as you please" further re-enforces the absolute statement that it should not be done, which i feel did not answer the original question (now this is my opinion)

Note to all, I know my posts can be somewhat controversial but i am not trying to inflame anything but simply to promote lively debate and discussion.

Loren, I will abide by the rules

[ADias]

The statement from ADias is without foundation

Everyone here is entitled to there own opinion. Please respect your fellow members opinions.

There is need to flame other individuals - please re-read the board Guidelines/Rules (that you agreed to when you registered here).

Loren, I am not trying to inflame anything, my statement regarding the post from Adias was that the statement was wrong in that he said :- "Direct answer: shifting without the clutch should never be done"

It was delivered as the be all and end all not as an opinion - and i stand by what i said in that factually it is incorrect.

If i have come across as inflamatory then i appologise.

I tried to answer the original post in a simple terms as possible, i wanted the poster to know the consequences of clutchless shifts if they are done wrong but above all i wanted to answer his question.

If indeed clutchless shifting should never be done then surely the reason for this statement should be added so the poster has something to evaluate.

My post, i believe, set out the pros and cons, i tried to explain what is happening to the components so the poster has an informed viewpoint, my post was not my opinions but a factual reply.

The comment :- "But as you said, it's your car, you can abuse it as you please" further re-enforces the absolute statement that it should not be done, which i feel did not answer the original question (now this is my opinion)

Note to all, I know my posts can be somewhat controversial but i am not trying to inflame anything but simply to promote lively debate and discussion.

Loren, I will abide by the rules

You are correct. My statement was definitive - to shift without a clutch is wrong. Of course, you can attempt to shift without it and play russian roulette and hope that the synchros survive. The clutch is there for a reason.

[Glyn]

You are correct. My statement was definitive - to shift without a clutch is wrong. Of course, you can attempt to shift without it and play russian roulette and hope that the synchros survive. The clutch is there for a reason.

And I agree that there is a risk and it is unusual, however the poster was simply asking about the consequences of shifting without the clutch and i believe my answer identified the risks, your answer did not, Your answer was more of a parent telling a kid not to do something, no reason - just because you said so

I always use the clutch and agree its there for that reason -----so we can argue whether it should be used or not :rolleyes: