3.4l converstion won't start

[jesthed]

Hello Gent's need to vent a little. Some history - First my car is in the registry if you want to look it up. I have a 3.4l conversion that would not start this season after storage. The indie that completed the conversion was not able to figure it out and the car is currently at a local Porsche dealer (MN) who thinks that the DME may be the problem but is not sure? what? The original DME was modded by FVD in FL. So currently my car (which got caught in a major hail storm this weekend on the dealers lot :( ) is sitting at dealers with No DME and indie is trying to figure out what FVD wants to do. i am wondering what my options are? The dealer says that they can't be sure if i get a new DME that it will fix the problem but if they put it in i own it. Both the indie and the dealer say that they have no codes? I am kind of caught between these 2 now and the clock is ticking. Has anyone had a DME go bad? Has anyone dealt was FVD in FL? If i buy a new DME won't i have to have flashed again? Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening. JES

[rsfeller]

Just some thoughts.

I know you stated there were no codes but should not the P dealer be able to "know" if a DME is good or not? With that being said...

If not then they should have one available or sitting on the shelf to test this theory. I would refuse to pay a dealer for an expensive piece of equipment if they cannot guarantee that is the issue. Another dealer in the area may provide a "test" DME to solve your question. Somewhere there is one floating around for testing needs.

If that is not an option a junk yard is your next choice. Check EBAY for a Porsche recyclers in Oklahoma as well as Cali. the DME is most likly a third as new.

Don't buy anything unless they can backup the theory, they have the skill and technology and this should not be that difficult for a dealer!

[tholyoak]

This should be easy to diagnose. Are there any immobilizer error codes? Most likely the flash from FVD erased the OBDII reporting and that is why there are no 'codes' in the DME. I have heard this from one person other person in regard to their conversion problems. According to your post this happened suddenly as the car worked when put away so I would check the simple things first. If the car doesn't even attempt to turn over, then the immobilizer isn't releasing the starter and there is an issue between the immobilizer and DME. If so check the fuse in the immobilizer under the seat. If the car turns over but doesn't run, then there is another issue. Could be the DME or a multitude of other things. It is just a motor. It needs fuel, spark and air to run. So does the fuel pump run when actuated, again easy to test with PST2. Unplug the MAF and take it out of the loop. The last step would be to swap the dme with a known good unit and see if it now runs.

If you give me your DME and immobilizer codes I can flash one of my spare DME units and you could swap it in and see if it fixes your problem.

-Todd

[jesthed]

Hey guys thanks for the input. Car turn over strong it just doesn’t start. The first thing I thought was fuel. It has fuel; I can hear the fuel pump when I turn the key. Then I tried jumping the relay to check and the fuel pump runs. I tried changing the fuel filter because I knew it had, not been changed. No good. Then I thought maybe battery but good voltage even tried jumping. Then I replaced fuel pump relay and dme relay no help. I had a issues last year after storage but indie diagnosed a fuel pump relay change and it ran all summer. Called indie and they came and got it and then a few days later said that they didn't know. Todd, you have the ability to flash the DME? I should be able to get the immobilizer codes from dealer right? Can I email you?

[tholyoak]

feel free to pm me

-Todd

[goldnogard]

I have an extra DME, whish you luck man. i see tholyoak is helping you.. so you are in good hands ;)

Edited June 7, 2008 by goldnogard

[jesthed]

Update! Sorry this took so long but i am back on the road. Todd aka Tholyoak diagnosed a bad or dead DME and came up with a replacement at a very reasonable cost to me. I thank Todd and this board because i would have been out much more $$$ with out them. I am still dealing with some fault codes though P1602 CAN timeout, P0447 shut off valve activated, P0453 Tank pressure sensor, P1117 Tank empty. Again my local Porsche dealership was no help with this and i quote "Checked fault codes and found faults P0447 and P0453 for carbon canister shut off valve and fuel tank pressure sensor for which the vehicle has neither component. The DME is looking for equipment that this vehicle does not have. Check Engine warning light is on all the time. Engine is running fine." :o So i have since purchased Durametric tester and Bentley manual. I have found the carbon canister and the shutoff valve. I need to know where to go from here should i just replace these items? or is there some trouble shooting i should do? Also i now have 2 spare DME's available, 1 turned up from the indie mechanic and the other one was modified by FVD for 996 condition unknown? If anyone needs them maybe Todd knows how to test them.

[tholyoak]

Jes,

Sorry I haven't replied to your email. I am confused why you think your car doesn't have the tank pres. sensor etc. It should. If it doesn't, that is obviously why you have the errors.

As I believe I told you before, the P1602 is not a CAN timeout error, it is simply the fact the battery has been disconnected (an interruption of power on term. 30 to the DME)

P0447 is not actuation of the evap valve, but an open circuit. either the valve isn't present, or the wiring is bad

P1117 is the o2 sensor after the cat on bank 1 is bad, likely a bad o2 sensor

P0453 is tank pressure sensor short to B+/above upper limit.

You need to look at the correct codes for your DME which is 5.2.2

-Todd

Edited August 14, 2008 by tholyoak

[jesthed]

Todd i am not saying that you wrong! What i am saying is that you are right, so right that you where able to dianose this car from home. My dealer had no clue when it came to this car! As for the codes i must be doing something wrong because the Durametric software is showing me something different. So P1602 is Battery disconnected, P0477 is open circuit evap valve? No? , P1117 o2 sensor, P0453 Tank pressure sensor short. I attached pdf so you can see what i see. I am running durametric frimware 5.1.0 and select Montronic 5.2.2 JES

codes.pdf

[tholyoak]

I doubt you are doing anything wrong. Basically their info is wrong. 1602 is can timeout for DME 7.8, the only CAN bus in your car would be if you had Tiptronic. This is simply indicating the voltage to the DME has been interrupted at some point (ie battery or dme disconnected).

P1117 is O2 sensor heater for 5.2.2, 7.2 and 7.8 so I don't know where the tank empty thing is coming from.

-Todd

[Loren]

I agree with Todd some of the Durametric codes explanations are wrong.

When did you last update your software? (it's free updates you know)

[rsfeller]

I agree with Todd some of the Durametric codes explanations are wrong.

When did you last update your software? (it's free updates you know)

And Duram (the developer) is very receptive to suggestions and questions if you feel codes are wrong. When we couldn't get my 1997 to communicate with his latest version of software he took quite a bit of time communicating with me reviewing log files to determine the cause and fix his software. At one point he was offering to send me an upgraded DME if he couldn't get the bus speed working right.

So to make his product better for all let him know of questionable code descriptions. He could have bad info or simple human error.

[jesthed]

Ok had some time to look over car this weekend and i'm lost. First there are some wiring differences between 97 98 MY. I attached the DME EWD for those that have been looking for them.

I started troubleshooting by finding the evap valve that Todd had mentioned earlier to me. When i remove the connector i get an additional code P0444 tank vent valve if i reattach it P0444 goes away.

Then tied to find this tank pressure sensor short but could not locate sensor. Bentley manual says it should be right near the fuel pump under the battery. no go no wires no look like anything is missing. Very dusty like no one has been in there in a while. Not good.

Check right front wheel well pull liner see charcoal canister and what i though was shutoff valve. Pull charcoal canister and find out that i though was shutoff valve was actually filler door actuator. There is no shut off valve or wiring on my car at the charcoal canister. The spot where the shut valve would go on canister was never cutout.

Started checking wire harness looking at each wire for anything obvious but found nothing yet.

I could replace the tank vent valve if you thing it would help. I did not look at the maf.

So there it is gents. The car seems to be running fine but i would love to rid of this CEL. The 97 EWD does not show a shut off valve or a pressure sensor but a difference pump valve? I was not able to locate this either. So i am batting zero right now. JES

986_MY97_EWD_DME522.pdf

986_MY98_EWD_DME_522.pdf

[tholyoak]

The only difference I see is that the '97 incorporates the AAV and the dif. pres sensor into one unit. If this device is present it should cause no issues. I believe it should be located on top of the fuel pump under the battery tray. Seems like the absence of this one device is leading to your all your CEL problems, outside of the O2 sensor one.

Todd

Edited August 18, 2008 by tholyoak

[tholyoak]

The tank venting valve and EVAP valve are the same part. This valve is opened to vent the carbon canister into the intake.

Edited August 18, 2008 by tholyoak

[jesthed]

Hey thanks Todd i agree i am just not able to find this unit. Maybe if i could find a part nbr or picture it would help. The bentley manual shows pressure sensor right on top, aft of the fuel pump for 98MY and talks about how this is a change from 97MY. Could it be part of the fuel pump itself? JES

[jesthed]

Looks like another member had a similar problem locating this pressure sensor on a 97MY 996 Tank pressure install?. I sent him a PM to see if he ever found it. JES

[Stefan]

Hey thanks Todd i agree i am just not able to find this unit. Maybe if i could find a part nbr or picture it would help. The bentley manual shows pressure sensor right on top, aft of the fuel pump for 98MY and talks about how this is a change from 97MY. Could it be part of the fuel pump itself? JES

The tank pressure sensor is on top of the fuel tank. To get at it, remove the battery and battery tray.

Here is a picture (sensor is circled in red). Note that in this picture, the sensor is unplugged. The plug is just below the sensor in this picture:

[tholyoak]

As stated above, the '97 is unique in that it doesn't have a tank pres. sensor as a separate part mounted on the top of the tank as on the later models. Based on my understanding (I have never worked on a '97) on the '97 what Porsche calls the AAV in the electrical diagrams and the pres. sensor are integrated together. If you look at the carbon canister (EVAP canister) in the front right wheel well you should find the integrated pres. sensor and the AAV valve as part of the canister. You can see what porsche calls the AAV on the later cars in Loren's picture below with the ye/br and blu/rd wires attached to it (not the connector indicated by the arrow). The part on the '97 will have a larger connector with an additional bl/vi wire.

-Todd

Edited August 20, 2008 by tholyoak

[jesthed]

OK armed with the additional info you guys provided i couldn't wait for the weekend to get here! Today I pulled both wheelwel liners looking for this Valve/Sensor. I figure it has got to be there since the drawing shows it. First we already knew there is no sensor in the fuel pump area but i looked agian maybe i missed it? Second here's a pic of the canister no sensor to be found. I pulled the entire canister out just to make sure. The sensor or wires that you see at the top are for the filler door actuator.

Sorry for such a large pic i didn't know how to make it smaller. So again i am having no luck. I am just not able to locate this valve or find a part # for it. JES

[tholyoak]

If you look at the schematic of the EVAP system I posted you will notice that the line indicated by the arrow in the pic I posted above runs to the central connection on top of the fuel pump in Stefan's picture above that has the tank pres. sensor mounted in line with it. This line is the only place the tank pres sensor can be installed in line on. Thus you need to follow the line from the purge valve to the tank looking along the way for an electrical connection that matches the colours listed on the '97 wiring diagram. Also you could check the black connector by the DME in the trunk and see if there is a ye/br wire at position 12 and a Bl/Vi wire at pos 11 as the wiring diagram indicates that would be running from the DME to the AAV and tank pres sensor, or in the case of the '97 the combined sensor.

-Todd

[jesthed]

Hey Todd i agree i traced that line as far as i could without putting the car on a lift looking for the sensor. If needed i will get under car and pull shields to see if i can find it. However looking back at the wiring diagrams I am beginning to think that this may actually be a harness pin out issue.

97 HARNESS -----------------------------------PIN----------------------98 HARNESS

Carbon Canister Shutoff Valve____________7_________________SAME

Tank Pressure Switch___________________43________________Vacant

Voltage output to Load__________________54________________SAME

Diagnosis – Tank Pump__________________57________________Vacant

Vacant_______________________________72________________Differential Pressure Sensor

Now I have not verified this with my harness but will tomorrow. There may be other differences in the harness also I probably need to do a pin to pin check on all 88 pins. The only codes that I am having consistently are P0453 and P0447 the other ones have not come back.

Looking at the pin out it looks like I do have a differential pressure switch and a shutoff valve as 1 unit but because the harness is wired different they are not wired up with this dme.

Can you check this out and tell me what you think? If this is correct i should be able to just re pin the connector at the DME. Could it be that simple? JES

[tholyoak]

Looks like you figured it out. Also it looks like the wiring of the fuel injectors and the ignition coils is different on the 97 vs the later cars as well. You definitely should fix those as well.

-Todd

[Stefan]

Note that the connector X3/1 (the black 30-pin connector on the left side of the DME in the rear trunk) for MY97 doesn't have pins for the fuel pressure sensor. So you will need to add those to that plug too, not just the DME.

[tholyoak]

Not true. The tank pressure sensor (not fuel pressure) as stated above, is still there it is simply an different sender and integrates with the chassis connector X3/1 in position 11, again as I stated above.

The additional br/pk and re/vi wires on the later cars with the separate tank pres sensor at X3/1 pos 22 and 1 are ground and power supply wires, respectively that are needed since it is a separate sensor. On the '97 the integrated valve and pressure sensor receive power and ground via another route.

-Todd