Flushing ATE blue with ATE gold brake fluid

[MikeA]

Bit the bullet and took my 04 C2 Cab to the dealer for the 30K service, spark plug change and brake flush. The main reason I did this is to have the car thoroughly checked over before the warranty expires in two weeks. I had flushed the brakes myself two years ago with the power bleeder and used ATE blue. The dealer tells me they only use the Porsche gold fluid yet my brake fluid reservoir is still full of blue fluid. I used a syringe to draw up about 5 cc's of the stuff and it is as blue as the stuff that comes from the can. I called my dealer and the Service Manager claims he watched the tech do the flush and assured me that it was done.

-Does this sound reasonable? (It doesn't to me). I have driven over 100 miles since the flush and would think that significant mixing would have occured if any blue fluid was left.

-New gold fluid is introduced to the system through the reservoir so shouldn't it have the least amount of risidual blue fluid left?

-Would you feel confident that the brakes where truly flushed given this situation?

The dealer did offer to flush the brakes again for me but I live in Truckee (about 100 miles from the dealer) and the dealer is in Rocklin. I don't have the time or desire to drive 200 miles round trip to have this done again. I have always trusted this dealer in the past and now don't no what to think.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[1schoir]

Bit the bullet and took my 04 C2 Cab to the dealer for the 30K service, spark plug change and brake flush. The main reason I did this is to have the car thoroughly checked over before the warranty expires in two weeks. I had flushed the brakes myself two years ago with the power bleeder and used ATE blue. The dealer tells me they only use the Porsche gold fluid yet my brake fluid reservoir is still full of blue fluid. I used a syringe to draw up about 5 cc's of the stuff and it is as blue as the stuff that comes from the can. I called my dealer and the Service Manager claims he watched the tech do the flush and assured me that it was done.

-Does this sound reasonable? (It doesn't to me). I have driven over 100 miles since the flush and would think that significant mixing would have occured if any blue fluid was left.

-New gold fluid is introduced to the system through the reservoir so shouldn't it have the least amount of risidual blue fluid left?

-Would you feel confident that the brakes where truly flushed given this situation?

The dealer did offer to flush the brakes again for me but I live in Truckee (about 100 miles from the dealer) and the dealer is in Rocklin. I don't have the time or desire to drive 200 miles round trip to have this done again. I have always trusted this dealer in the past and now don't no what to think.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Mike:

If you have gone so far as to examine the brake fluid in the reservoir in a syringe, it's obvious that the system has not been completely flushed.

When doing it at home, most of us keep flushing and bleeding until there is no trace of the old (different color) fluid.

If there is still blue fluid in the reservoir, then it hasn't been sufficiently flushed.

Maybe you can ask the dealer if he'll make good on his offer to flush the brakes again the next time you are in the area.

Regards, Maurice.

[perryinva]

If they did a proper flush with Gold, there would be no blue fluid left. Period. To say he "watched the tech do your car" is BS..like Service Managers have nothing better to do than watch a power brake flush get done... They HAVE to siphon/suction out the old fluid before they can put in the new, otherwise there is no room in the resevoir, and obviously mixing occurs. It wasn't done..I'd ask for a credit. (I'm surprised he didn't say they saw you used Blue, so they went out and got Blue..just for you)...I alternate colors JUST so there is no way I can not know when I have all new fluid, though it is actually pretty easy to tell old gold from new gold....I've not done my 996 yet, and Blue will be next, as the 30 k WAS just done on my car with fresh fluid..does anyone have any experience with the blue staining the resevoir....older BMWs, ,did stain blue, which looke dbad and mad eit hard to tell the level. Supposedly all newer resevoirs don't get stained....

[Loren]

It is not unusually for the Super Blue to stain the tank.

If the car was properly flushed and re-bled (including the clutch and ABS) then there should not be any residual Super Blue.

Next time drive to my house (I am about 10 minutes from your dealer) and I'll help you do it (for free).

This is not the first bad report I have heard on this dealer.

[MikeA]

It is not unusually for the Super Blue to stain the tank.

If the car was properly flushed and re-bled (including the clutch and ABS) then there should not be any residual Super Blue.

Next time drive to my house (I am about 10 minutes from your dealer) and I'll help you do it (for free).

This is not the first bad report I have heard on this dealer.

Thanks Loren but I have done the brakes before (actually once in my old Boxster and once in my current 996). It is fairly straight forward. The blue fluid was in the system from when I flushed it last myself. The only reason I had the dealer do it was because of the fact that the 30K service and pre warranty expiration inspection needed to be done so I had them do the spark plugs and brake flush as well. I just hope that the spark plugs were replaced also and they didn't do the same thing with the plugs that they did with the brake flush.

I was under the illusion that this dealer was fairly reputable. In fact I was considering buying an Audi from them also.

Is there such a thing as a reputable dealer anymore!! There probably is no Easter bunny either.

[perryinva]

No..the Easter Bunny is A LOT more real than a reputable dealer service....

[Izzy]

Looks like the dealer might have done a partial flush, or just bled the brakes. I do switch between blue and gold when I do a full flush, yearly or twice a year depeding on track days. When I do a full flush, blue stays blue and gold stays gold.

[MikeA]

Looks like the dealer might have done a partial flush, or just bled the brakes. I do switch between blue and gold when I do a full flush, yearly or twice a year depeding on track days. When I do a full flush, blue stays blue and gold stays gold.

The dealer told me that they used 2 Liters of gold fluid to do the flush. This is also what I was charged for under parts. In the past when I have completely flushed my 986 and 996 brakes, I got by with just about one liter. If they used 2 liters I would think that there shouldn't be any trace of blue left.

Izzy, when you have flushed out your blue fluid in the past, did you have any trace of blue left in your reservoir? My dealer is still insisting that they flushed with 2 liters of gold and that the blue in my reservoir is just "residual trace blue fluid" I really don't see how there could be ANY blue fluid left after flushing with 2 liters of gold.

thanks

[1schoir]

Looks like the dealer might have done a partial flush, or just bled the brakes. I do switch between blue and gold when I do a full flush, yearly or twice a year depeding on track days. When I do a full flush, blue stays blue and gold stays gold.

The dealer told me that they used 2 Liters of gold fluid to do the flush. This is also what I was charged for under parts. In the past when I have completely flushed my 986 and 996 brakes, I got by with just about one liter. If they used 2 liters I would think that there shouldn't be any trace of blue left.

Izzy, when you have flushed out your blue fluid in the past, did you have any trace of blue left in your reservoir? My dealer is still insisting that they flushed with 2 liters of gold and that the blue in my reservoir is just "residual trace blue fluid" I really don't see how there could be ANY blue fluid left after flushing with 2 liters of gold.

thanks

Mike:

That dealer's "explanation" defies the laws of physics. If you do the flush properly (and I imagine the dealer tech knows how to do this), there is no detectable trace of the old fluid left for you to see.

Perhaps he's now boxed himself in to his story and he's sticking to it. Ask yourself these questions: Why would he offer to redo it? How else could he justify charging you for 2 liters?

Regards, Maurice.

[Loren]

The Super Blue will stain the brake fluid reservoir (which is the main reason I don't use it).

But if you pulled some fluid out with a syringe and it was blue then someone is not telling the truth.

[MikeA]

The Super Blue will stain the brake fluid reservoir (which is the main reason I don't use it).

But if you pulled some fluid out with a syringe and it was blue then someone is not telling the truth.

I still have the 60cc hypodermic syringe with the 5 cc's of blue fluid I drew out of the reservoir sitting here inf front of me. I aslo have some ATE blue left in the can from my last flush 2 years ago and I compared the unused left over fluid to the stuff in the syringe. The color, tint and tone look identical to me.

As I said, it is not so much that I got ripped off for the cost of the flush that angers me, it is the fact that the dealer blatantly lied and continues to lie about the flush being done. I can not trust them again in the future and I certainly will never buy a Porsche or Audi from that dealership. Their dishonesty will have cost them at least one and perhaps two future auto sales.

[tagger]

No expert here but It looks like you did not get your fluid flushed. I would ask to speak to the tech who "did the job"...he may recall that is an extra item and not included in the standard 30k service. Hence it was not done...then the service manager will recall they had exactly the same color/model Porsche that day that did get the flush.

Next discuss this with Porsche USA and they will get the dealer back in order.

My experience with my local dealer is satisfactory, however when I had some ignorance issues withe local Mercedes dealership ( largest In USA) I contacted Mercedes USA and suddenly I was treated like royalty by the dealership...and i have never purchased one car from them!

Sometimes they need to know this is the worst type of insult...being treated like an idiot!

Good Luck and get an extended warranty!

Edited April 16, 2008 by tagger

[Danyol]

My colleague & I both did our brake flush the same week on our PCars, both had the blue in the system when we started. We used a power bleeder and a syringe to remove as much of the old fluid from the reservoir as possible.

One liter of fluid appeared to produce a colorless bleed, within a few days fluid in the master cylinders in both cars appeared to be blue again. We came to the conclusion small residual fluid could affect the new batch, it appears to be a very strong dye.

We didn't go to the extent of comparing a sample with ATE blue.

[perryinva]

WOW..that is the first time I'v e heard that, but to be honest, I've never gotten to the gold/blue, back to gold phase, always I ended at blue when I sold the car. If you flushed to clear gold and used a Motive type power bleeder than the only blue fluid left would be in the ABS unit, and it must take a few days for it to disperse into the resevoir. I totally believe you, and that really sucks! I never would have figured that to happen. You would think with all the TAE Super blue out there, that would have come up at sometime!

My colleague & I both did our brake flush the same week on our PCars, both had the blue in the system when we started. We used a power bleeder and a syringe to remove as much of the old fluid from the reservoir as possible.

One liter of fluid appeared to produce a colorless bleed, within a few days fluid in the master cylinders in both cars appeared to be blue again. We came to the conclusion small residual fluid could affect the new batch, it appears to be a very strong dye.

We didn't go to the extent of comparing a sample with ATE blue.

[Loren]

I agree there could be a small amount of blue left in the ABS/PSM if you flush it yourself. But, a dealer has a PST2 and or PIWIS so their flush procedure should clear the ABS/PSM.

I still can't find an excuse for the dealer - other than they didn't do it.

[Tool Pants]

Was not there. Don't know what happened. Never seen your car. But.

At our work on cars days we have done many brake fluid flushes. With the Motive and sometimes switching between ATE gold and blue. When they mix it looks sorta of green to me in the clear plastic drain tube, and then the new color comes out. That's when you turn off the bleed valve.

A flush including the clutch takes about 2/3rds of a liter. If they claim to have put 2 liters of the Porsche brake fluid in I have a problem with that alone, as the system does not hold that much. Don't see how blue fluid could be left in the reservoir after 2 liters.

Hook up your power bleeder, take off a wheel, hook up your tube, and open up a nipple. If blue comes out....

[perryinva]

Yep, the proof would be in the blue pudding....

Was not there. Don't know what happened. Never seen your car. But.

At our work on cars days we have done many brake fluid flushes. With the Motive and sometimes switching between ATE gold and blue. When they mix it looks sorta of green to me in the clear plastic drain tube, and then the new color comes out. That's when you turn off the bleed valve.

A flush including the clutch takes about 2/3rds of a liter. If they claim to have put 2 liters of the Porsche brake fluid in I have a problem with that alone, as the system does not hold that much. Don't see how blue fluid could be left in the reservoir after 2 liters.

Hook up your power bleeder, take off a wheel, hook up your tube, and open up a nipple. If blue comes out....

[MikeA]

Was not there. Don't know what happened. Never seen your car. But.

At our work on cars days we have done many brake fluid flushes. With the Motive and sometimes switching between ATE gold and blue. When they mix it looks sorta of green to me in the clear plastic drain tube, and then the new color comes out. That's when you turn off the bleed valve.

A flush including the clutch takes about 2/3rds of a liter. If they claim to have put 2 liters of the Porsche brake fluid in I have a problem with that alone, as the system does not hold that much. Don't see how blue fluid could be left in the reservoir after 2 liters.

Hook up your power bleeder, take off a wheel, hook up your tube, and open up a nipple. If blue comes out....

I intend to buy a liter of ATE gold in the next week or two and I will do the flush myself again. It will take me less time to flush the my brakes at home than it woud to drive the 200 mile round trip back to the dealer and wait for them another hour to do the flush over. I will make sure to pay very close attention to the color of the fluid that comes out. I doubt it will be gold but if it is, I will call the dealer and apologize to them. I will post my result here in case anyone who has followed this thread is curious.

The reason they claim to have used two liters to flush my brakes is that they said they needed that much to get all of the blue fluid flushed out. Ironic isn't it, since the fluid in the reservoir is still very blue! Maybe they should have used three liters (just being sarcastic now).

[perryinva]

Seriously, please follow up here..I'm dying to know what happened!!!

[box01s]

A flush including the clutch takes about 2/3rds of a liter. If they claim to have put 2 liters of the Porsche brake fluid in I have a problem with that alone, as the system does not hold that much. Don't see how blue fluid could be left in the reservoir after 2 liters.

Agree that a quick flush with a power bleeder uses about 2/3 of a liter, but if you don't bleed the clutch line (which shares the fluid reservoir with the brake system), you'll have some residual blue in the system that will eventually tint the (new) gold slightly with (old) blue. Furthermore, a proper dealer flush on cars equipped with ABS/TC 5.3 and PSM utilizes the Porsche System Tester 2 (PST2) to activate certain valves in the hydraulic system for proper bleeding.

So if the dealer does a flush correctly, especially using 2 liters of gold to replace blue, you shouldn't see any blue in the reservoir.

In my opinion, the service manager didn't watch the tech and the tech didn't do a proper flush. If the fluid in the reservoir is still dark blue, sounds like they didn't do anything but charge for parts (fluids) and labor. This could be construed as fraud.

Take the car back and demand a complete brake system system flush, including the clutch line, using the PST2 if required, per the Porsche service manual. Of course, this work should be done at no charge.

If you do the work at home and don't bleed the clutch line (or ABS/PSM with PST2) you may have a slight bluish tint in your gold after switching from blue as reported by Loren.

Mike, please post back on your remedy.

[Tool Pants]

Along these lines. A 987 friend just took her car in for the 2 year service. Part of this service includes looking for burned out bulbs.

She picked up the car after the service and her friend in a 997 followed her home, and noticed a brake light was not working. She returned the car the following day and the dealer replaced the bulb, that should have been replaced the first time.

At least the dealer did not charge her for the second visit.

[MikeA]

Mike, please post back on your remedy.

Just ordered 2 liters of ATE 200 (Gold) from Tire Rack. Hopefully I can find time next weekend to do the brake/clutch flush. If not I will do it the following weekend. I am just as curious as you as to what color bleeds out of my system.

Stay tuned...

[MikeA]

Mike, please post back on your remedy.

Just ordered 2 liters of ATE 200 (Gold) from Tire Rack. Hopefully I can find time next weekend to do the brake/clutch flush. If not I will do it the following weekend. I am just as curious as you as to what color bleeds out of my system.

Stay tuned...

OK, time for me to eat crow...

I just bled my brakes again with ATE Gold. The stuff that came out of the brake lines was greenish blue. It became lighter green as I continued to flush but never turned the gold color of the fluid in the can. Prior to bleeding I mixed a small amount of some ATE blue that I had from my last DIY brake flush with the new ATE gold that I just bought. I mixed it 50:50 in a small glass flask and it remained as blue as if it was straight ATE blue. I continued to add more ATE gold but the mixture just became a lighter shade of blue-green and never completely turned gold before I stopped. I stopped because I am now convinced that the ATE blue has an incredibly strong blue dye that resists color change even when diluted several times with the gold. Clearly this makes switching colors of brake fluid with each flush somewhat worthless. The only time it really is effective for determining when the old fluid is purged is when going from gold to blue. Going from blue to gold will not be to useful to determine when you have purged the old and new fluid is flushing out.

I guess it is time to call the dealer and apologize for doubting that they flushed the brakes. I now feel quite confident that they did indeed flush the brakes and probably did use two liters of fluid yet could not get the blue out. I'm somewhat surprised that this has not come up before on Renntech. Hopefully my experience will save others the frustration of trying to get all of the blue out of their brake lines when flushing.

Thanks for all the feedback people,

Mike

[perryinva]

Mike, please post back on your remedy.

Just ordered 2 liters of ATE 200 (Gold) from Tire Rack. Hopefully I can find time next weekend to do the brake/clutch flush. If not I will do it the following weekend. I am just as curious as you as to what color bleeds out of my system.

Stay tuned...

OK, time for me to eat crow...

I just bled my brakes again with ATE Gold. The stuff that came out of the brake lines was greenish blue. It became lighter green as I continued to flush but never turned the gold color of the fluid in the can. Prior to bleeding I mixed a small amount of some ATE blue that I had from my last DIY brake flush with the new ATE gold that I just bought. I mixed it 50:50 in a small glass flask and it remained as blue as if it was straight ATE blue. I continued to add more ATE gold but the mixture just became a lighter shade of blue-green and never completely turned gold before I stopped. I stopped because I am now convinced that the ATE blue has an incredibly strong blue dye that resists color change even when diluted several times with the gold. Clearly this makes switching colors of brake fluid with each flush somewhat worthless. The only time it really is effective for determining when the old fluid is purged is when going from gold to blue. Going from blue to gold will not be to useful to determine when you have purged the old and new fluid is flushing out.

THANKYOU for following up. It happens so seldom..plus now I know I will run into the same thing when I go from blue to gold.

I guess it is time to call the dealer and apologize for doubting that they flushed the brakes. I now feel quite confident that they did indeed flush the brakes and probably did use two liters of fluid yet could not get the blue out. I'm somewhat surprised that this has not come up before on Renntech. Hopefully my experience will save others the frustration of trying to get all of the blue out of their brake lines when flushing.

Thanks for all the feedback people,

Mike