M96 vs M97

[Hamad]

I expected nothing else than a good result if all the terms are gratified, the labour is free as well. Well done, you are owner of a good car now.

Thanks RMF! Labor is also covered :D I can't wait to get it back on road.

Do you know if they will reset the millage?? That will be great!!!

Thanks,

H

[RFM]

OPC cant ( may not ) reset the millage, there are specialized shops to do that if you really want.

[Hamad]

OPC cant ( may not ) reset the millage, there are specialized shops to do that if you really want.

Would you recommend that? Would it affect the resell? I will ask them and see.

H

Edited September 17, 2008 by Hamad

[London987]

Hi - I have been researching this as I have a May '05 3.2 S - 987.

How do I find out whether the car has the new design? I am two months away from a new warranty, still undecided. I have spoken to a couple of porsche mechanics all who say the problem of the seals seems to have died down and was more frequent in the 986.

I want to keep the car for a while, hence why I bought one with all the toys and with 10.5k miles. have had it a year......11k miles.

I am getting to a point where this has taken the edge of owning the car as I am now worried about a fail. I'm bang on the mid 2005....

the OPC has said to bring it in and they can give the rms a check over but with the provisor that it might look fine today but go pop tomorrow. how can i find out if the car is a good 'un or likely to fail?

Thanks

[RFM]

987 build date may 05 should have the new design already.

[stubenhocker]

Another reason to buy a gen2 997, NO INTERMEDIATE SHAFT!!

[shocky]

Another reason to buy a gen2 997, NO INTERMEDIATE SHAFT!!

First year of production, more reliable, hummmm? I've been doing these cars nearly 40 years. RMS, intermediate shaft ... try chain tensioners, valve guides, thermal reactors, magnesium cases, head studs etc. Early 911 usually needed a top end at 40-50k and you were lucky to get 100k before rebuild. My 72 911 leaked oil from almost day one. The 2.7s, an absolute disaster, early 964 nearly as bad. My 08 C2 is the best ever, hands down. These are high performance cars that are usually driven as such and generally bullet proof. If you think otherwise, try a Ferry or a Lambo! If you want total piece of mind, buy a Honda.

John

[pwiersema]

My 2005 997s broke down last week. The Porsche dealer in Hong Kong just told me that the engine shaft is broken and the engine needs to be replaced. The car has only done 20+k kilometers.

I understand from the posting on this board that case of this have happened before ad it is a mechanical failure early 997's are prone to which is known by Porsche.

Does anyone here have experience or heard about how Porsche deals with this situation. In particular whether Porsche caries the cost of the engine replacement? I have no remaining warranty on the car.

Would really appreciate any feedback.

[London987]

Hi RFM - how can I tell when the new IMS was released? is there a chassis/engine range to look out for?

[machina]

Hi RFM - how can I tell when the new IMS was released? is there a chassis/engine range to look out for?

New IMS design started with MY06 in the US market.

[RFM]

997 new design IMS started world wide with MY06, the in warranty replaced MY05 engines are all new design.

[London987]

was the 987 changed earlier than the 997? i don't have a new engine in my 05 987, just the one it left the factory with. ah well, i do have crossed fingers!

[pomocanthus]

Does anyone have an estimate on what it would cost to install a Porsche remanufactured 3.6 into a 997 Tiptronic car including labor? I am contemplating a MY05 997 with 66K miles for ~$30K but want to take into account the potential cost of total engine replacement.

[phillipj]

Does anyone have an estimate on what it would cost to install a Porsche remanufactured 3.6 into a 997 Tiptronic car including labor? I am contemplating a MY05 997 with 66K miles for ~$30K but want to take into account the potential cost of total engine replacement.

A Re Man 3.6 (pre 2006) is $8500 from Porsche with a $2800 core charge. Installation should be around $2,000 to $2,500 (from a good INDIE) I'm sure you could negotiate the install price with the dealer as well. You will have a 2 year warranty on the new engine.

You can buy the 2006+ 3.6 or 3.8 (with the new IMS design) for $8000 but the core charge is like $6000 or something crazy like that. Call the boys at Sunset or Suncoast Porsche and they can give you all the up to date prices and core charges

Can I ask why the 05 997 with 66k miles is only $30k? :huh: What is wrong with it? :rolleyes: $30k is very low even in this economy!!

Phillipj

[pomocanthus]

A Re Man 3.6 (pre 2006) is $8500 from Porsche with a $2800 core charge. Installation should be around $2,000 to $2,500 (from a good INDIE) I'm sure you could negotiate the install price with the dealer as well. You will have a 2 year warranty on the new engine.

You can buy the 2006+ 3.6 or 3.8 (with the new IMS design) for $8000 but the core charge is like $6000 or something crazy like that. Call the boys at Sunset or Suncoast Porsche and they can give you all the up to date prices and core charges

Can I ask why the 05 997 with 66k miles is only $30k? :huh: What is wrong with it? :rolleyes: $30k is very low even in this economy!!

Phillipj

I haven't had a chance to check out the car yet but pics look good. Not very much wear at all on the seats, coupled with the fact that approx. 20K miles per year implies that mostly highway miles. I will look at car this weekend and bring my trusty Durametric along. If all looks good then will get Indie shop to do complete checkout. I figure $30K + $10-$15K for engine replacement gives me a 997 with "new" engine and 2 years warranty; not bad considering you can barely get a 987S Cayman for that price.

[355bhp]

Somewhere on this forum, it's said that if the IMS lets go, it'll be during the first 25K miles. I've got 30K on my purchased used '05, and so far I've left no engine parts on the freeway. And I'm having an absolute blast driving that little monster.

Edited March 5, 2009 by 355bhp

[1schoir]

Somewhere on this forum, it's said that if the IMS lets go, it'll be during the first 25K miles. I've got 30K on my purchased used '05, and so far I've left no engine parts on the freeway. And I'm having an absolute blast driving that little monster.

I don't know that there is any basis for the 25K miles comment.

A better approach would be to read the article by Jim Pasha in the December 2008 issue of Porsche Excellence magazine, entitled "M96, Past, Present and Future", with input from Jake Raby and Charles Navarro.

Then go to LN Engineering's website and read the article entitled "Intermediate Shaft", here: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

Both of these articles are well written and based on first-hand experience, and they go a long way towards explaining the IMS issues and possible causes and remedies.

IMO, they are must reading for anyone with an M96 engine. Whether or not you have read these articles, you have the right approach: "...having an absolute blast driving that little monster" is exactly the right attitude!

Regards, Maurice.

Edited March 5, 2009 by 1schoir

[berty987]

A good post and pleased to see some technical assesment has gone into understanding the failures before the redesign. One question however about the oil viscosity. Is the suggestion to move from 0-40 mobil 1 to 5-40 or 0-40 to 0-50 ? What range is the higher viscosity beneficial ? Bearing in mind that the oil also lubricates the hydraulic tappets and is the motive force behind the variocam i would be a little nervous about moving too far away from the porsche reccomended oils list. Certainly the suggestion to remove the cover from the bearing and ensuring that the oil isnt left too long before changing seems to make sound sense. I have also heard from other sources that infrequent or short trip use can degrade the oil quicker than daily use. The suggestion from this other source was 10k intervals for oil changes , especially if the car isnt being warmed up fully or driven for short trips. Personally I think I will opt for the more frequent oil changes and consider a slightly different spec oil. I have already had the intermediate shaft cover replaced with a new clutch at 20k miles as it was weeping.

Advice on the oil spec appreciated... thanks

Edited March 5, 2009 by berty987

[berty987]

Regards the 30k mileage phenomenon , bearings normally fail randomly unless they are subjected to poor lubrication , excessive load or temperature. 30 k miles is what I would term infant mortality for this bearing , suggesting its either a defect in manufacture , or as the article suggests , some other change in the bearing service conditions. A high number of the vehilces seen with this failure are low mileage cars that are 3-6 years old. This suggests either infrequent use or short journeys , and on some of the older cars maybe even non specified oils. Not all M96 engines fail , so there must be some mitigating circumstances that cause these failures. To date this seems to be the most logical and well thought out explanation i've seen.

[phillipj]

A Re Man 3.6 (pre 2006) is $8500 from Porsche with a $2800 core charge. Installation should be around $2,000 to $2,500 (from a good INDIE) I'm sure you could negotiate the install price with the dealer as well. You will have a 2 year warranty on the new engine.

You can buy the 2006+ 3.6 or 3.8 (with the new IMS design) for $8000 but the core charge is like $6000 or something crazy like that. Call the boys at Sunset or Suncoast Porsche and they can give you all the up to date prices and core charges

Can I ask why the 05 997 with 66k miles is only $30k? :huh: What is wrong with it? :rolleyes: $30k is very low even in this economy!!

Phillipj

I haven't had a chance to check out the car yet but pics look good. Not very much wear at all on the seats, coupled with the fact that approx. 20K miles per year implies that mostly highway miles. I will look at car this weekend and bring my trusty Durametric along. If all looks good then will get Indie shop to do complete checkout. I figure $30K + $10-$15K for engine replacement gives me a 997 with "new" engine and 2 years warranty; not bad considering you can barely get a 987S Cayman for that price.

I still can't figrue out why the asking price would only be 30K?? Is this an angry soon to be divorced spouse selling the car? That is at least $10k lower than it should be. Also why do you think you will need a new engine? Is there a problem with the current engine? If not that engine could easily run for another 60k miles without a problem. If you are buying the car with a blown engine then offer the person much less than 30k....

[pomocanthus]

I still can't figrue out why the asking price would only be 30K?? Is this an angry soon to be divorced spouse selling the car? That is at least $10k lower than it should be. Also why do you think you will need a new engine? Is there a problem with the current engine? If not that engine could easily run for another 60k miles without a problem. If you are buying the car with a blown engine then offer the person much less than 30k....

No blown engine that I know of. I just wanted to see what worse case scenario would cost me ... I drive home after handing over suitcase full of cash and the engine falls apart. I'm not sure why so cheap but I am heading over to look at car as soon as possible. It looks like a very good deal unless it just runs like crap.

[355bhp]

I don't know that there is any basis for the 25K miles comment. A better approach would be to read the article by Jim Pasha in the December 2008 issue of Porsche Excellence magazine, entitled "M96, Past, Present and Future", with input from Jake Raby and Charles Navarro. Then go to LN Engineering's website and read the article entitled "Intermediate Shaft", here: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html Both of these articles are well written and based on first-hand experience, and they go a long way towards explaining the IMS issues and possible causes and remedies.

IMO, they are must reading for anyone with an M96 engine. Whether or not you have read these articles, you have the right approach: "...having an absolute blast driving that little monster" is exactly the right attitude!

Regards, Maurice.

Gulp! I finally read my Certificate of Authenticity, and my car was built 29 October 2004 (that's right around Halloween too--yipes!), so it looks like it has the wimpy, single-race IMS bearing. I coughed up an extra 3 Grand for a four-year extended warranty that kicks in right about now, so I'm not gonna worry too much. Regardless, I'm not gonna enjoy "the little monster" one whit less! Watch this space.

Edited March 8, 2009 by 355bhp

[cnavarro]

Your 2004 is likely to have a dual row bearing - Porsche returned to using the dual row bearing until the MY06 where they went to a much larger single row. To date, every MY99 and 00 3.4 996 IMS has had the single row, but everything else I have seen has been dual row. There are exceptions though to the rule - I did a 3.6 X51's IMS and it had a single row like the 99-00 3.4 996, so go figure.

I updated our IMS page to try to be a little more clear in explaining the differences and what simple changes can be done to improve longevity.

In response to an earlier post someone where someone had thrown out a figure that inferred most failures occur early, there's no evidence to say that if it doesn't break early, that it won't.

Edited March 9, 2009 by cnavarro

[355bhp]

Your 2004 is likely to have a dual row bearing - Porsche returned to using the dual row bearing until the MY06 where they went to a much larger single row. To date, every MY99 and 00 3.4 996 IMS has had the single row, but everything else I have seen has been dual row. There are exceptions though to the rule - I did a 3.6 X51's IMS and it had a single row like the 99-00 3.4 996, so go figure.

I updated our IMS page to try to be a little more clear in explaining the differences and what simple changes can be done to improve longevity.

In response to an earlier post someone where someone had thrown out a figure that inferred most failures occur early, there's no evidence to say that if it doesn't break early, that it won't.

Once I re-read the IMS page, I realized my potential mistake. I could worry myself sick over this, but I'm gonna continue to have fun with the car. If anything, perhaps I'm babying it a little too much, so I'm gonna increase my RPM shift points, and mpg be damned! I WILL increase the frequency of oil changes as cheap insurance, as well as look into other oil brand choices.

And that someone was me! I stand corrected.

[355bhp]

Somewhere on this forum, it's said that if the IMS lets go, it'll be during the first 25K miles. . .

I don't know that there is any basis for the 25K miles comment. . .

Here's the post, in part, where I read of the IMS failing only in the first 25K miles.

. . . The intermediate shaft if prone to failure will fail at around 30 - 45K miles regardless of how the engine has been serviced or driven. There is no confirmation that every car will fail for this problem , but there do seem to be a number of cars reported all with the same issue.

OK, so it says 30-45K miles. Anyway, from subsequent posts and from expert sources suggested by you and others, the IMS bearing can fail at any time. As I interpret it, the IMS article from LN Engineering states that there's basically a one-in-ten chance (in the first 90K miles) the bearing will fail. Those aren't great odds, but they're lots better than 50-50. Still glad I purchased that extended warranty though.