M96 vs M97

[355bhp]

I'm seriously contemplating buying a used 997 around the middle of next year. Yesterday, I stopped by a local and reputable independent Porsche shop of long standing and asked one of the shop's owners if he services 996's and 997's. He said yes, "up to a point" then warned me to get a thorough inspection and title check on any prospective purchase, because those models had engines "blow up" from what he felt was an internal defect. He also advised me to check the internet regarding this matter, and I was disheartened--devastated really, that there are indeed reports of such catastrophic engine failures.

My question is, do these failures involve mostly 996's and are they related to the RMS problems? Also, are there any steps beyond a comprehensive inspection, that can be taken to minimize the chances of one of these failures occuring?

Since I'm brand new to this forum and am not (yet) even a Porsche owner, I'll accept links to other topics within this forum that may answer my questions.

Thanks in advance.

[Loren]

Reliability of 996 Engines

[355bhp]

Reliability of 996 Engines

Looks like a lotta Chicken-Little-sky-is-falling talk to me. I noticed in other forums, e.g. Roadfly.com, that the threads on this topic ended about the middle of last year. I'll keep a special watch for any RMS leaks in my inspections though.

[500]

The 996 and 997 engines are of a modular design and are designed to be replaced vs. rebuilt at the end of their service life; the same thing happens when (a rather small number of) these engines suffer from some sort of major internal failure...Porsche just replaces them hence the increased # of new engines replacements vs. the older designs (pre996)

Edited December 16, 2007 by 500

[berty987]

Have been doing some research on this myself. The 996/ 986 engine was released with a new design of bottom end to the previous 993 units. As part of the new design the intermediate shaft was supported by a revised bearing design and used fewer bearing supports. The intermediate shaft is in the heart of the engine block and transfers drive from the crank to the camshafts. During the life of the 986/996 , there were no fewer than 5 different designs of the intermediate shaft and one revision of the support / housing. On to the 987/997 , which used the same design of intermediate shaft and bearing as the outgoing 986/996 engines. The 986 (boxster ) and 996 (911) engines suffered from intermediate shaft failures and also RMS leaks . The RMS seal is separate from the Intermediate shaft problem and less significant, as it is a visible oil leak from the engine which can be repaired by fitting a new seal, usually done with the clutch. The RMS seal has been redesigned a number of times also , on both the 986/996 and 997/987, the consensus is it is now a rare problem on a few 987/ 997 cars. Since introduction there have been a number of cases of both 987 (boxster) and 997 (911 carerra and carrera S) with failed engines as a result of broken intermediate shafts or collapsed intermediate shaft bearings. Porsche now have a revised intermediate shaft and bearing/ housing for the 997 , though no mention of it being fitted to any specific model year. This suggests that it may be fitted as of late 2007 or 2008 as standard. Personally I beleive there is an issue with the design of either the bearing or shaft leading to a potential for premature failure. Unfortunately there is no way to predict this failure , though some have seen the intermediate shaft cover seal weep, just before bearing collapse. The intermediate shaft cover and RMS are hidden by the transmission bell housing , so can only be seen with the gearbox and flywheel removed. My advice would be to purchase porsche extended warranty on any 3.2, 3.4 , 3.6 or 3.8 Porsche of 987/997, or 996/986 version. The GT3 and turbo use a different design of engine block from an earlier car , so the issues of intermediate shaft are to my knowledge unheard of. The intermediate shaft if prone to failure will fail at around 30 - 45K miles regardless of how the engine has been serviced or driven. There is no confirmation that every car will fail for this problem , but there do seem to be a number of cars reported all with the same issue.

[RFM]

997 - 987 MY 2005 = old design

997 - 987 MY 2006 and later = new design intermediate shaft.

[355bhp]

My advice would be to purchase porsche extended warranty on any 3.2, 3.4 , 3.6 or 3.8 Porsche of 987/997, or 996/986 version.

Would you know if an extended warranty can be purchased on a used model still under the original warranty?

[Loren]

In the US you usually purchase an extended warranty that starts when the manufacturers warranty ends.

[berty987]

RFM,

Do you know the part numbers of the old and new design ? Looking at the PET catalogue , there is no chassis number or production date for a change in intermediate shaft for the 987 or 997. There is only a new part number listed for the 997 but no reference to date of introduction or chassis number range. Thanks

[jhbrennan]

I spend time on this board plus 3 others and have done so for the last 18 months - not many, if any, "catastropic" failures have been reported on 997's. Maybe the failures don't get reproted but I would bet if there was a problem with the 997's we would have heard about it. I agree you should do your own due diligence but I wouldn't be worried about this.

[berty987]

Not all porsche owners are enthusiasts and join these forums. As a result there could be a number of cars fixed under warranty that have not been reported. It will take a few years before cars not under warranty and in the higher mileage range start to fall into the hands of those on the forum. This is probably the reason for revisions to the design with so little public awareness of the problem. Certainly the 996 and 986 issues are now becoming more documented. I've personally seen a 30k mile 997 in a Porsche agent having the engine replaced for intermediate shaft/ bearing failure , so its not speculation that these engines can fail. I am curious though , as to what the revisons of intermediate shaft and cover entailed , and from what model year (chassis number) the current design is fitted. Certainly the PET catalogue only lists 2 designs of intermediate shaft for the 997 , the latest design having no suggested chassis number or date of inception.

[saaber]

Not all porsche owners are enthusiasts and join these forums. As a result there could be a number of cars fixed under warranty that have not been reported. It will take a few years before cars not under warranty and in the higher mileage range start to fall into the hands of those on the forum. This is probably the reason for revisions to the design with so little public awareness of the problem. Certainly the 996 and 986 issues are now becoming more documented. I've personally seen a 30k mile 997 in a Porsche agent having the engine replaced for intermediate shaft/ bearing failure , so its not speculation that these engines can fail. I am curious though , as to what the revisons of intermediate shaft and cover entailed , and from what model year (chassis number) the current design is fitted. Certainly the PET catalogue only lists 2 designs of intermediate shaft for the 997 , the latest design having no suggested chassis number or date of inception.

More intermediate shaft discussion here fyi: http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?...ermediate+shaft

I find the comment about non-egas cars having 2 bearings for the intermediate shaft with later models going to one bearing to lessen vibration very interesting. Does the newest design have 2 bearings?

[machina]

so would you be comfortable with a 2005 C2S if it carried the new CPO?

Have been doing some research on this myself. The 996/ 986 engine was released with a new design of bottom end to the previous 993 units. As part of the new design the intermediate shaft was supported by a revised bearing design and used fewer bearing supports. The intermediate shaft is in the heart of the engine block and transfers drive from the crank to the camshafts. During the life of the 986/996 , there were no fewer than 5 different designs of the intermediate shaft and one revision of the support / housing. On to the 987/997 , which used the same design of intermediate shaft and bearing as the outgoing 986/996 engines. The 986 (boxster ) and 996 (911) engines suffered from intermediate shaft failures and also RMS leaks . The RMS seal is separate from the Intermediate shaft problem and less significant, as it is a visible oil leak from the engine which can be repaired by fitting a new seal, usually done with the clutch. The RMS seal has been redesigned a number of times also , on both the 986/996 and 997/987, the consensus is it is now a rare problem on a few 987/ 997 cars. Since introduction there have been a number of cases of both 987 (boxster) and 997 (911 carerra and carrera S) with failed engines as a result of broken intermediate shafts or collapsed intermediate shaft bearings. Porsche now have a revised intermediate shaft and bearing/ housing for the 997 , though no mention of it being fitted to any specific model year. This suggests that it may be fitted as of late 2007 or 2008 as standard. Personally I beleive there is an issue with the design of either the bearing or shaft leading to a potential for premature failure. Unfortunately there is no way to predict this failure , though some have seen the intermediate shaft cover seal weep, just before bearing collapse. The intermediate shaft cover and RMS are hidden by the transmission bell housing , so can only be seen with the gearbox and flywheel removed. My advice would be to purchase porsche extended warranty on any 3.2, 3.4 , 3.6 or 3.8 Porsche of 987/997, or 996/986 version. The GT3 and turbo use a different design of engine block from an earlier car , so the issues of intermediate shaft are to my knowledge unheard of. The intermediate shaft if prone to failure will fail at around 30 - 45K miles regardless of how the engine has been serviced or driven. There is no confirmation that every car will fail for this problem , but there do seem to be a number of cars reported all with the same issue.

[PTEC]

so would you be comfortable with a 2005 C2S if it carried the new CPO?

Yes. The CPO warranty will cover intermediate shaft failure. The engine will be rebuilt if possible (no damage to the cylinders/case halfs) and if not a reman engine (with the newer design) will be installed. In fact I would say buy the 05 and hope it fails.

[Hamad]

so would you be comfortable with a 2005 C2S if it carried the new CPO?

Yes. The CPO warranty will cover intermediate shaft failure. The engine will be rebuilt if possible (no damage to the cylinders/case halfs) and if not a reman engine (with the newer design) will be installed. In fact I would say buy the 05 and hope it fails.

I bought an 05 2S on the 15th of this month and purchased the extended warranty on the 17th... the Engine failed on the 18th!!! :angry:

I just got back from dealer where they have dissemble the engine and found that the bearing caused cylinder 3 and 5 to fail. I'm not a mechanic and not sure of details but was advised by my service adviser that the engine needs replacement.

My only worry is that agent mentioned that this might not be covered b y warranty as the car was reported on the same day the warranty started and usually you need a month before making any claim!! have anyone heard of this policy before???

I am waiting for the agent to send the report along with photos of the engine to Germany and ask for a 'good well' treatment! Basically its begging Porsche to replace engine under warranty or cover part of the replacement. This will take another week before I hear the news and, according to service agent, I have 60% chance of getting this!

Appreciate any advice???

Edited August 30, 2008 by Hamad

[RFM]

If the extended Porsche warranty is purchased the 17th, the OPC have taken that day a " Vehicle Analysis " with the PIWIS tester and send on line to the factory. If the engine is broken the day after ( 18th ), there is no problem. The OPC have to take a new " Vehicle Analysis " with the broken engine and send on line to the factory, so that they can compare both results.

[Hamad]

If the extended Porsche warranty is purchased the 17th, the OPC have taken that day a " Vehicle Analysis " with the PIWIS tester and send on line to the factory. If the engine is broken the day after ( 18th ), there is no problem. The OPC have to take a new " Vehicle Analysis " with the broken engine and send on line to the factory, so that they can compare both results.

Thanks RFM. The test was taken on the 6th (when I was thinking of buying the car. I paid for the warranty on the 17th and the certificate was given to me on the 18th (as per the service consultant advice, it takes a day to be validated/sent to factory). I have driven the car for less than 100km between the test and issue of warranty/engine failure. The dealer issued the warranty for me based on the test that was done on the 6th.

The dealer now toke the analysis of the broken engine and will send to factory but did not promise warranty coverage.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

[RFM]

The factory is accommodating with 997 MY 05 broken engines if all the terms are gratified. Don't worry it will be OK.

[Hamad]

The factory is accommodating with 997 MY 05 broken engines if all the terms are gratified. Don't worry it will be OK.

Thanks RFM! I will keep you guys posted.

[Hamad]

The factory is accommodating with 997 MY 05 broken engines if all the terms are gratified. Don't worry it will be OK.

I just got off the phone with the dealer and they mentioned that the report was sent and they received a request from the from the factor to submit another report on the conditions of the pistons!!

is this good news? according to my dealer it is as he said they haven’t rejected the request and are looking at the case?!! do you guys know if this is good news or just an ordinary investigation that will lead to me covering the bill???

Thanks,

Hamad

[svansyoc]

I'm seriously contemplating buying a used 997 around the middle of next year. Yesterday, I stopped by a local and reputable independent Porsche shop of long standing and asked one of the shop's owners if he services 996's and 997's. He said yes, "up to a point" then warned me to get a thorough inspection and title check on any prospective purchase, because those models had engines "blow up" from what he felt was an internal defect. He also advised me to check the internet regarding this matter, and I was disheartened--devastated really, that there are indeed reports of such catastrophic engine failures.

My question is, do these failures involve mostly 996's and are they related to the RMS problems? Also, are there any steps beyond a comprehensive inspection, that can be taken to minimize the chances of one of these failures occuring?

Since I'm brand new to this forum and am not (yet) even a Porsche owner, I'll accept links to other topics within this forum that may answer my questions.

Thanks in advance.

[svansyoc]

The engine failures were primarly due to intermediate shaft breakage, somewhere in mid 2005 the 987 had the larger shaft installed at the factory,at one point in time the reman engines from pcna were updated with the new shaft as well. Some people therorize that there is corrilation between engine revs and shaft breakage(although I know for a fact that it is not 100%). When buing a Porsche sports car I recomend going to shop that has the capability of reading the rpm/rev counts stored in the dme control unit. Basicly it can be in two diffeerent formats, earlier cars used an upper and lower count and newer vehicles had 6 or more ranges, each range means ignition counts after a specific rpm. The higher the range and higher the count the more the vehicle ran at higher rpms. (note the range is specific to different engines) any ignition counts in the upper ranges means possible engine damaging rpms have been met, so note the counts in the last two ranges in later vehicles, "o" is a great number. Also note that these counts follow the control unit and not the engine, if an engine has been replaced, the same counts will be stored.

[Hamad]

The factory is accommodating with 997 MY 05 broken engines if all the terms are gratified. Don't worry it will be OK.

Just heard back from dealer and they gave me the good news THE FACTORY WILL COVER THE ENGINE! :jump:

I am not sure about labor charges but its marginal compared to engine cost!! According to dealer engine has been ordered and it will be 2 weeks to 18 days before I have the car back on road!! :drive:

I have to say I wasn't expecting much from factory and was preparing to get a lawyer but they surprised me! Now they gained another customer for life!!! :thumbup:

Thanks all,

H

Edited September 15, 2008 by Hamad

[RFM]

I expected nothing else than a good result if all the terms are gratified, the labour is free as well. Well done, you are owner of a good car now.

[Tool Pants]

I take it you have to pay for the labor. Why is that since yo have a warranty?