mobile 1 0W40 analysis results 8700 miles 00 boxster S

[saaber]

Just got my used oil analysis back so here it is FYI:

00 Boxster S used oil analysis mobile 1 0w40 8700 miles

00' boxster s with 72k miles. 8600 miles on this oil change.

Mobile 1 0W40 since new including this oil change. Normal boxster-type mixed driving, no track use. If anybody knows anything about these analyses, should I be concerned with the iron levels?

I have switched to redline 5W40 for this next oil change so we'll see how that analysis goes. As I understand it the first one or two oil changes with redline show increased levels of some metals due to redline "scavaging" deposits from the old oils. ?? Anybody have links to other boxster used oil analyses? Thanks

Bob

P.S. analysis interpretation help found here fyi: oil analysis interpretation

Edited November 28, 2007 by saaber

[White987S]

Bob, read this oil analysis here:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...hl=oil+analysis

His "iron" was 23 while yours is 27.

[Doug H]

Hi,

saaber - Do not be concerned about the iron levels at all

Regards

Doug (BITOG)

[saaber]

Hi,

saaber - Do not be concerned about the iron levels at all

Regards

Doug (BITOG)

Thanks Doug, BITOG universal average is something like 100 for iron and from what I have seen in my research so far most Porsche's with M1 0w40 have 20-30 ppm iron. The way the lab wrote it up made me a tad concerned but now that I have researched it I see it is normal. Also the lab's average is based on 4k mile OCI when Porsche recommends 12-20k so that makes it hard to correlate on longer oil runs (i.e. is it a linear relationship where a 8k run should equal twice the 4k average?, who knows?). There was one case of a Porsche owner with 11ppm but then the next sample with harder driving showed higher levels for that car.

Maybe someday someone can compile enough data to make a more refined BITOG "expected averages" chart, ideally by make/engine and oil. Would take forever but would be neat to see. Maybe starting with a Porsche-specific one would be more feasible... Thanks for your input!

Edited November 29, 2007 by saaber

[Doug H]

Hi,

saaber1 - Correctly interpreting UOAs is a complex issue. Universal averages are at best a guide. Trending one engine or a group of engines of the same specification is the most accurate way to monitor oil condition and wear metal uptake rates. Wear metal uptake can then be reasonably assessed for "spikes" that may indicate some engine abnormality

Wear metal uptake rates are not linear and it is wise to remember that they are accumulative in real terms. So it is only wise to judge the rate at the OC point - interim tracking invites many wrong assumptions. Certail lubricants have a tendency to show higher levels of some metals than others but there are sound chemical reasons for this. They DO NOT indicate abnormal engine wear!!

I have tracked many Porsche 928 engines and I have a significant database on this engine family. Most 928 engines are very similar (metallurgy etc) and very few are modified with add on oil coolers etc (not like 911 engines). In the case of the 928s the OCI uptake result is 1ppm Iron/1000kms

To accurately assess one lubricant against another requires a very strict set of controls to ensure accuracy. Each "conditioned" lubricant must start at a similar point and tracking is now done by Radioactive Tracer Technology amongst a number of other available processes. It is beyond the scope of UOA results which are really only a very accurate way of determining the condition of the lubricant!

In field trials CUMMINS state that around 800k miles is needed to assess a lubricant in service and that end on end lubricant changes (Brand/type) are simply a waste of time. After using UOAs since the 1950-1960s course I share this view entirely

I hope this of some interest

Regards

Doug (with Delvac 1 5w-40 in my Boxster)

Edited November 29, 2007 by Doug H

[White987S]

Hi,

saaber1 - Correctly interpreting UOAs is a complex issue. Universal averages are at best a guide. Trending one engine or a group of engines of the same specification is the most accurate way to monitor oil condition and wear metal uptake rates. Wear metal uptake can then be reasonably assessed for "spikes" that may indicate some engine abnormality

Wear metal uptake rates are not linear and it is wise to remember that they are accumulative in real terms. So it is only wise to judge the rate at the OC point - interim tracking invites many wrong assumptions. Certail lubricants have a tendency to show higher levels of some metals than others but there are sound chemical reasons for this. They DO NOT indicate abnormal engine wear!!

I have tracked many Porsche 928 engines and I have a significant database on this engine family. Most 928 engines are very similar (metallurgy etc) and very few are modified with add on oil coolers etc (not like 911 engines). In the case of the 928s the OCI uptake result is 1ppm Iron/1000kms

To accurately assess one lubricant against another requires a very strict set of controls to ensure accuracy. Each "conditioned" lubricant must start at a similar point and tracking is now done by Radioactive Tracer Technology amongst a number of other available processes. It is beyond the scope of UOA results which are really only a very accurate way of determining the condition of the lubricant!

In field trials CUMMINS state that around 800k miles is needed to assess a lubricant in service and that end on end lubricant changes (Brand/type) are simply a waste of time. After using UOAs since the 1950-1960s course I share this view entirely

I hope this of some interest

Regards

Doug (with Delvac 1 5w-40 in my Boxster)

Hi Doug, isn't Delvac (Mobil) 15W40 only for diesel engines? Thanks!

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS..._1300_Super.asp

Edited November 29, 2007 by White987S

[Doug H]

Hi,

White987S - No, the oil I use (Delvac 1 5w-40) is a "mixed fleet" Group 4/5 fully synthetic Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) for Commercial use

I have used this lubricant for many years and over many millions of kms in a variety of engines - including many Porsche engines

It is a very different lubricant to Delvac 1300 15w-40 (mineral) that you mention

Delvac 1 5w-40 has a very close relation in M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w-40!

Regards

Doug

[saaber]

Wear metal uptake rates are not linear and it is wise to remember that they are accumulative in real terms. So it is only wise to judge the rate at the OC point - interim tracking invites many wrong assumptions. Certail lubricants have a tendency to show higher levels of some metals than others but there are sound chemical reasons for this. They DO NOT indicate abnormal engine wear!!

Very interesting stuff Doug, I am learning a lot about oils... When you said, "the uptake rates are not linear" and also "interim tracking invites wrong assumptions", Do you mean that the wear rates are too variable so that the "snapshot" of what an oil consists of, as provided by a UOA, is only useful over long periods (because it represents the accumulation of many "spikes" of wear)?

If that is the case I understand what you are saying because one would need tons of interim tracking data to give you an answer to such questions as the two I am interested in:(1) "does wear in most synthetics (or redline, specifically) occur early after the oil change", and (2) "what scavaging occurs and when when switching from M1 to redline"

Edited November 30, 2007 by saaber

[Doug H]

Hi,

saaber - When an oil change is done the new lubricant will go through a cleaning and replating phase. This is longer if the new lubricant is a different formulation (Brand/Type) to the replaced lubricant. This affect can last for a very long time indeed in certain circumstances. It will provide anomalies in UOA results in the process - especially in regards the various additives used

As well the new virgin lubricant will have a metal content of its own - more or less

So the wear metal uptake is not linear - as well, contaminated oil tends to reduce the uptake rates in some cases. So interim UOAs are best at determining the condition of the lubricant (viscosity, water content, TBN/TAN etc) and just add to the engine's wear metal trending pattern.

Unwelcome "spikes" caused by say a fractured air intake will (usually) show a companion spike in more than one wear metal in any UOA, and this can tell a story!

So regular UOAs will form the trend, the OC UOA will be the most meaningful one in most cases as accumulation is complete

To answer your points in the same order;

1 - Perhaps, but see above. Increased wear metals in the new oil may be a carryover from the old oil (oil coolers etc) or part of the cleaning/replating phase

2 - It is hard to say what level of "scavaging" may present. This is a factor of each lubricant's formulation and the additive package used in each

The tracking of UOAs is a long process. The UO sample intervals need to be similar and these will form the basis for determining the OCI

Endeavouring to rate oils by wear metal increases/decreases and by margins of just a few ppm in random UOAs is simply impossible!

Perhaps you now better understand my comment on BITOG about changing from M1 0w-40

I hope this is of interest

Regards

Doug

[cnavarro]

Doug,

I'll just point out that Delvac 1 here in the US is a CJ-4 oil with lower Zn and P compared to the product marketed under the Mobil 1 Truck and Diesel formula, which is a CI-4, with 1400+ppm Zn and P, like the old Delvac. I have no problem with the Truck and Diesel M1 - it's HTHS viscosity is nearly that of 15w50 m1!

Charles Navarro

LN Engineering

http://www.LNengineering.com

Aircooled Precision Performance

Edited December 1, 2007 by cnavarro

[Doug H]

Hi,

Charles - A lubricant's anti wear package is not built on as you put it "Zn and P" alone

Delvac 1 has had a around about 24% on complex esters in it's content for many years. Its Anti Wear package is second to none.

I have used Delvac 1 in all of its formulations for over a decade or so, in a variety of engine families (petrol and diesel) and over many millions of kms! I have been through the "tear down inspect" process with an engine's manufacturer (MTU-Detroit Diesel) at 1.1m kms - I believe I know a little about all of the Delvac 1 5w-40 variants

As I have pointed out to you before, Delvac 1 is fully imported into this country from the US - we use exactly the same current US formulation and always have since the aerly 1990s! Our most popular heavy diesel engines are ex the US!

Many CJ-4 manufacture's lubricants are already out performing the previous CI-4 versions

My comments stand

Regards

Doug

[cnavarro]

My only point I was trying to make with the above post was that the old CI-4 Delvac 1 is what M1 Truck and Diesel is now marketed under here in the US, and is a proven product, and is easily available and an excellent alternative to M1 0w40, although not an approved oil. Nothing more. I know your position on HDEO oils clearly.

And yes, since you brought it up, Zn and P aren't the only elements in an oils detergent and dispersant packages, but do perform the best overall and can be improved upon with changes in detergents and use of other AW additives, like boron (ZDTC, AP, DDP, VG48, etc). Most recently, I can cite SAE Technical Paper Series 2000-01-2030, Film-forming properties of Zinc-based and Ashless Antiwear additives, among at least a dozen other papers that back up this claim.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=367300

Edited December 2, 2007 by cnavarro

[saaber]

Hi Doug H or others,

Do you know what Porsche used for the 6 speed gearbox for a 2000 S? They recommend 90k OCI and I am thinking about changing mine out at 72k and would liket to have it tested. For gear oil, are there any other things that are important to test for besides blackstone's standard test? TBN?, TAN?, other?

Thanks!

[juniinc]

75W-90 for $43 a quirt or

Swepco 201

Hi Doug H or others,

Do you know what Porsche used for the 6 speed gearbox for a 2000 S? They recommend 90k OCI and I am thinking about changing mine out at 72k and would liket to have it tested. For gear oil, are there any other things that are important to test for besides blackstone's standard test? TBN?, TAN?, other?

Thanks!

Edited December 7, 2007 by juniinc

[Doug H]

Hi,

saaber - Firstly perhaps the initial fill was an Esso product

Mobil are emphatic about specifying their "PTX" lubricant or going to a Dealer and Castrol (Germany) recommend their excellent SAF-XO (at 160k kms OCI)

In any case they all concur on a 75w-90 synthetic (GL5) but not all gear oils are made the same and the above two are recommended with good purpose and no doubt to improve shift quality and longevity

Many Manufacturers do have special gear oil "brews" and in many cases these are only available via the Approved Dealers

Gear oils are indeed quite different to analyse via a UOA. If you puplish the results on here I'll walk you through the details

Regards

Doug

[saaber]

Hi,

saaber - Firstly perhaps the initial fill was an Esso product

Mobil are emphatic about specifying their "PTX" lubricant or going to a Dealer and Castrol (Germany) recommend their excellent SAF-XO (at 160k kms OCI)

In any case they all concur on a 75w-90 synthetic (GL5) but not all gear oils are made the same and the above two are recommended with good purpose and no doubt to improve shift quality and longevity

Many Manufacturers do have special gear oil "brews" and in many cases these are only available via the Approved Dealers

Gear oils are indeed quite different to analyse via a UOA. If you puplish the results on here I'll walk you through the details

Regards

Doug

Thanks Doug, I'm trying to figure out what to tell the lab the oil is so they they can apply their "universal averages" (these averages are probably very shaky I know but it is better to start from identifying the product I suppose than to just say "Porsche gearbox oil" or the something like that) :)

I would definately appreciate your help interpreting the report when I get it because I am just starting to learn the motor oil UOAs and don't know the first thing about the 75W90 UOAs.

Do you think it is worth it to spring for the TBN or any of the other "add-on" anlayses?

THanks again

[Doug H]

Hi,

saaber - Typically with gear oils you need the following information;

Viscosity

Phosphorus

TAN

Iron

Copper

Chromium

Aluminium

Lead

Silicon

Sodium

Water

PQ Index

A lot depends on the actual metallurgy used in the component in seeking these

Tell the Lab what vehicle, MY and gearbox type/model

Universal averages are quite meaningless in this case although they will probably provide some data

I am quite happy to help

Regards

Doug

[John V]

For completeness, here is mine. I have only owned the car since 22,000 miles and didn't do an analysis on the first oil change.

The latest sample had a lot of very hard use on it.

[Doug H]

Hi,

this is the latest Used Oil Analysis results from my 2.7 Tiptronic 986

Engine data

M9622 & Tiptronic @ 98677kms (61260miles)

Operation over 15677kms (9730 miles)

A number of long high speed trips (85%) and a small amount (15%) of Urban running

Revs rarely above 6k

Location

Australian Tropics - high humidity (up to 98%)

Lubricant

Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 (CI-4/SL)

Lubricant condition

Nitration = 14 Abs/cm

Viscosity @ 40C = 88cCt (new lubricant is 93cSt)

TBN 6.4 (new lubricant is 11)

PQ Index <1

Elemental analysis

Iron = 12

Aluminium = <1

Chromium = 1

Copper = 10

Lead = 1

Potassium = 6

Silicon = 18 (up due to gasket sealant)

Sodium = 5

Oil consumption = nil

Summary

The lubricant was suitable for continued use and was well within all degradation paramaters

I changed the lubricant and the filter

The previous lubricant in this engine and from new was M1 0w-40

I hope this is of interest

Edited April 22, 2008 by Doug H

[White987S]

The previous lubricant in this engine and from new was M1 0w-40

I hope this is of interest

Doug H, are you saying this was the first oil change for a 2001 Boxster?

[Doug H]

Hi,

White987S - Of course the engine lubricant was changed as per Porsche's service schedule - at around two year intervals or at the 20k km OCI points whichever was reached first

[silver arrow]

Great thread.

[niebyl2002]

Here's mine. Boxster MY99 with 108500 miles, 7500 miles on oil Mobil 1 15W/50.

Blackstone_Lab___Porsche_Boxster_1999_as_of_mod.pdf

Chevron fuel cleaner added to fuel every second fill up.

Edited August 30, 2008 by niebyl2002

[Doug H]

Here's mine. Wonder what you think??

Sorry - no link?

[niebyl2002]

Give me a sec. Added

Edited August 30, 2008 by niebyl2002