AMSOIL

[matthewjamesdunn]

Well, after doing some research, it looks as though AMSOIL fully synthetic seems to be one of the best motor oils on the market. Head to head it seems significantly better than Mobil 1 or Redline. They have the research to back it up. Downside is it is $7.40 a quart or about double what you'll pay for Mobil 1 from Walmart. If any of you guys have used AMSOIL's products or recommend them let me know.

Matt

[PAULSPEED]

Hi,

Synethic oil tends to turn to sludge and builds

in the bottom of the oil pans. Does Amsoil lubricate

beter but produce more sludge in the bottom of the oil

pan. I know that I will not be tairing apart the motor, but

I do know what it's like working on a sludge motor.

I hope the Amsoil works for you but I am staying with

the Mobil 1. If I was going to change oil, I would

love to use Castrol oil. There oil is great in high reving

motors.

Paul

[Loren]

Well, after doing some research, it looks as though AMSOIL fully synthetic seems to be one of the best motor oils on the market. Head to head it seems significantly better than Mobil 1 or Redline. They have the research to back it up. Downside is it is $7.40 a quart or about double what you'll pay for Mobil 1 from Walmart. If any of you guys have used AMSOIL's products or recommend them let me know.

Matt

Hmm... I just went through the 9 page list of Porsche approved oils (dated April 11, 2007) and Amsoil is not there.

[wvicary]

Hi,

Synethic oil tends to turn to sludge and builds

in the bottom of the oil pans. Does Amsoil lubricate

beter but produce more sludge in the bottom of the oil

pan. I know that I will not be tairing apart the motor, but

I do know what it's like working on a sludge motor.

I hope the Amsoil works for you but I am staying with

the Mobil 1. If I was going to change oil, I would

love to use Castrol oil. There oil is great in high reving

motors.

Paul

Why do you think synthetic oil turns to sludge?

[DaveE]

There's a thread on Pelican about motor oils and the reduction in zinc and phosphorus in most all current oils. The guys doing the testing seem to prefer Brad Penn, Redline and a few others, at least in the aircooled engines and other flat tappet engines.

[djomlas]

why would you want to get more expencive oil, not sure if it works, and could damage things?

mobile 1 is good as is.

[Tool Pants]

There is a good oil message board with a few Porsche owners.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

[matthewjamesdunn]

I bought the car with 60000 miles on it and the guy I bought it from had all the oil changes documented back to when it was new. It was all Mobil 1. I know that its decent oil but I don't know if its the best. I've heard from numerous people with high performance vehicles that its not the best because its not "fully symthetic". To each his own though. I guess I'm a little paranoid now about not using one of Porsche's approved motor oils so I'll stick with the lube she's always had. I suppose after decades of building sports cars Porsche may know what oil there motors should have in them.

Matt

[Tool Pants]

Oil is debated and over debated. I am on my 9th year of Boxstering and I have not heard of any engine failure do to an oil issue.

At our work on cars days over the years we sometimes do oil changes. Local owners show up with their oil and filters and we change the oil. Sometimes they show up with nonapproved oil and we still put it in. Those cars are still running fine.

I use Mobil only because it is cheap and easy to find. But the Mobil I use is not approved.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...p;hl=unapproved

We once did an oil change on Larry's 2001 S. He showed up with non Mobil, I think it was Redline. His car is still alive.

It is your car, use what you want. I would like to see a report on AMSOIL.

[Chris_in_NH]

realistically, you could probably use any oil you want - approved or not, synthetic or not. (flame suit on!)

but as you have wisely realized, Porsche has been doing this for a while, so it's probably best to take their advice on a product as critical as oil. ;)

it would be nice to know why Amsoil is NOT on their list, though.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Chris_in_NH

[efahl]

it would be nice to know why Amsoil is NOT on their list, though.

Probably because Amsoil is too small to bother with when people here in the US can get other stuff that they've already tested (Castrol, Mobil and so on).

[benaslan]

it would be nice to know why Amsoil is NOT on their list, though.

Probably because Amsoil is too small to bother with when people here in the US can get other stuff that they've already tested (Castrol, Mobil and so on).

I've always been an Amsoil guy. I've run it in so many vehicles and every vehicle I've run it in I have had zero engine problems, smoother an quieter idle, better fuel efficiency.

I got introduced to Amsoil 15 years ago when right out of high school I worked in a race shop where we races sprint cars. We had jst changed over to Amsoil and after the first race on it, just like we always did, we sent off our oild to be analyzed. The lab responded asking us why we were sending them new oil. I've been sold ever since.

I've only had my 996TT for 2,000 miles, but I plan on going Amsoil in this too. I'm waiting another 1,000 miles, and going to run an oil analysis on the current Mobile 1, then run an analysis on the Amsoil later on and compare them.

I'd be more than happy to post my results since this has always been such a debated topic, but it will obviously be a little while.

[efahl]

but it will obviously be a little while.

If you just need help putting miles on the car, you can probably find a volunteer or two here. :)

[Doug H]

Hi,

Amsoil in not "the best" oil but simply one of many good lubricants. At least their 5w-40 Euro Formula product is a MB Approved one

Many Amsoil lubricants tend to thicken with use and this is not desirable in a modern engine

Comparing the performance of lubricants can never be a subjective task and any one of the 100 odd Porsche Approved and Listed ones will perform the same as another. Any variance will indeed be at the periphery and be very minor indeed

Mobil 1 products marked "synthetic" are indeed full synthetic (Group 4 or 4/5) in what had become the true sense of the word. Porsche's specification mandates only engine lubricants that are Group 3 (semi-synthetic to many) or of a higher Group.

Some Mobil lubricants like the non approved one that I use have a complex ester content and are rated as Group 4/5

benaslan - Comparing one lubricant to another by using a single pass UOA is at best "interesting" at worst it is totally misleading!

Any late model Porsche owner who choses not to use a lubricant from the Porsche Approved list should do so with considerable caution. Unless of course the specification is "better" than those on the List - a lot of knowledge is needed to determine this point

In particular the Porsche test protocols include prolonged tests for viscosity control (at both 100C and 150C) and for anti-foaming performance. Anti foaming performance is critical in engine with more than one oil pump and where the lubricant plays a significant "hydraulic" actuation role

It is wise to remember that their is no "magic" oil of any Brand

Regards

Doug Hillary

Edited November 23, 2007 by Doug H

[wvicary]

@ Doug H

Informative post. I was wondering if you could post or point me in the direction as to what protocols Porsche uses for it's oil. Thanks in advance.

[Doug H]

Hi,

wvicary - The basis for Porsche engine lubricant Approval is the current ACEA Quality standard A3/B3

Porsche then extend some of the ACEA tests and they have some specific tests of their own. These include anti-foaming and a number more

Since 1994 it has been common for Euro makers to modify the ACEA tests as "after tests" to ACEA compliant lubricants. This is based on special engine family needs, field testing experience and of course Warranty claims data and etc

Prior to this Manufacturer tests were "in house" devised and or extensions of the API's tests

Despite all the hype about the API's SM Quality standard (mainly through misunderstandings) some of Porsche Approved oils are already rated SM/CF but of course none will be ILSAC GF-4 compliant

I hope this is of some interest - if I can locate any more of the data I have on the Porsche test protocols I'll publish it

Regards

Doug Hillary

[wvicary]

Cheers Doug, thanks very much for the reply. Please post any data you discover.

[Bill_SoCal]

Hi,

Synethic oil tends to turn to sludge and builds

in the bottom of the oil pans. Does Amsoil lubricate

beter but produce more sludge in the bottom of the oil

pan. I know that I will not be tairing apart the motor, but

I do know what it's like working on a sludge motor.

I hope the Amsoil works for you but I am staying with

the Mobil 1. If I was going to change oil, I would

love to use Castrol oil. There oil is great in high reving

motors.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Just catching up on this thread...Mobil 1 is a synthetic oil. I'm a Porsche owner, however, I work with Synpsg too, which is an distributor for Amsoil products. Synthetic oils actually prevent the huge problem that we see in newer cars today relating to sludge. If you would like to read more on sludge, please take a look at the following link: Sludge Problem While I use Amsoil in my Porsches ('03 Boxster, '06 Cayenne, '08 Cayenne S), the only other oil I would use is the factory OEM oil, Mobil 1. The data consistently shows that Amsoil is number one with Mobil 1 a close second...other than that, I trust my investment in vehicles to none of the other brands. Mobil 1 is a great engine oil...Amsoil is not commercialized and in my opinion uses higher quality additives; that's there niche, being the best. I think there could probably much more debate around the quality of an oil filter than that of the industry leading oils. The data is available.

Best regards,

Bill

[Loren]

Hi,

Synethic oil tends to turn to sludge and builds

in the bottom of the oil pans. Does Amsoil lubricate

beter but produce more sludge in the bottom of the oil

pan. I know that I will not be tairing apart the motor, but

I do know what it's like working on a sludge motor.

I hope the Amsoil works for you but I am staying with

the Mobil 1. If I was going to change oil, I would

love to use Castrol oil. There oil is great in high reving

motors.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Just catching up on this thread...Mobil 1 is a synthetic oil. I'm a Porsche owner, however, I work with Synpsg too, which is an distributor for Amsoil products. Synthetic oils actually prevent the huge problem that we see in newer cars today relating to sludge. If you would like to read more on sludge, please take a look at the following link: Sludge Problem While I use Amsoil in my Porsches ('03 Boxster, '06 Cayenne, '08 Cayenne S), the only other oil I would use is the factory OEM oil, Mobil 1. The data consistently shows that Amsoil is number one with Mobil 1 a close second...other than that, I trust my investment in vehicles to none of the other brands. Mobil 1 is a great engine oil...Amsoil is not commercialized and in my opinion uses higher quality additives; that's there niche, being the best. I think there could probably much more debate around the quality of an oil filter than that of the industry leading oils. The data is available.

Best regards,

Bill

Not to be argumentative - but if Amsoil is so good why can't you get it approved by Porsche?

I think folks that are looking at a $29,000 engine replacement cost (without labor!) are a bit skeptical to use something that the manufacturer has not approved.

[Nick_USA]

My 2 cents.... If your car is still under warranty then you should stick to what is recommended....after that it's up to you. But I wouldn't like to have a warranty claim rejected because I didn't have an approved oil in the car.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Nick_USA

[Bill_SoCal]

Hi,

Synethic oil tends to turn to sludge and builds

in the bottom of the oil pans. Does Amsoil lubricate

beter but produce more sludge in the bottom of the oil

pan. I know that I will not be tairing apart the motor, but

I do know what it's like working on a sludge motor.

I hope the Amsoil works for you but I am staying with

the Mobil 1. If I was going to change oil, I would

love to use Castrol oil. There oil is great in high reving

motors.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Just catching up on this thread...Mobil 1 is a synthetic oil. I'm a Porsche owner, however, I work with Synpsg too, which is an distributor for Amsoil products. Synthetic oils actually prevent the huge problem that we see in newer cars today relating to sludge. If you would like to read more on sludge, please take a look at the following link: Sludge Problem While I use Amsoil in my Porsches ('03 Boxster, '06 Cayenne, '08 Cayenne S), the only other oil I would use is the factory OEM oil, Mobil 1. The data consistently shows that Amsoil is number one with Mobil 1 a close second...other than that, I trust my investment in vehicles to none of the other brands. Mobil 1 is a great engine oil...Amsoil is not commercialized and in my opinion uses higher quality additives; that's there niche, being the best. I think there could probably much more debate around the quality of an oil filter than that of the industry leading oils. The data is available.

Best regards,

Bill

Not to be argumentative - but if Amsoil is so good why can't you get it approved by Porsche?

I think folks that are looking at a $29,000 engine replacement cost (without labor!) are a bit skeptical to use something that the manufacturer has not approved.

Hi Loren, would you believe I was just reading your blog? I haven't been active in the forum over the years, but I know this is the best and you've really done a nice job here. I'm pleased to be able to contribute.

Amsoil does not have any OEM vehicle manufacturer alliances due to the business model they started early on with the dealer network. A person can only purchase Amsoil from a dealer or though Amsoil directly. Amsoil has been loyal to this strategy. Whether I agree or not, that's the business strategy in place. The product is excellent. I think we both agree that Amsoil easily passes the performance specifications for Porsche, and they consistently prove it with data by benchmarking the industry leaders. The only way to truly know the difference in the quality of oil and the protection you are truly getting, is to sample Mobil 1 with Blackstone Laboratories and Oil Analysis, and do the same with Amsoil based on similar driving and change interval. It is important to initially sample with both labs so the report is not perceived to be biased in any way. I have used both labs in the past; they're excellent. It becomes pretty evident which oil has the better protecting attributes over time.

Don't get me wrong...I would use Mobil 1 if I didn't believe in the quality of Amsoil. If Amsoil changed their marketing plan and went through the channel, we might see a huge change in the way people perceive oils. Developing strategic alliances with large car manufacturers would be incredible for Amsoil. Point well taken in regard to Porsche, however, I think it can be explained since Amsoil has no business alliance with Porsche. Based on independent tests that can be performed anywhere in the world, can you point me to data that shows where Mobil 1 has outperformed Amsoil on industry recognized tests? Based on that, is where I put my money for protection. Believe me, I too have a huge investment in Porsche vehicles and want to protect it.

An interesting white paper that was just developed by Amsoil on gear oil is amazing too...Mobil 1 came in second, however, Amsoil was clearly almost twice as good overall; and the only one of two gear oils that overall met mfg factory fill specifications? Take a look at the golf scores on page 19: Gear Lube Comparison. Some of the other synthetics that claim to be the best, didn't so so well. Look how poorly some performed? Believe me, I have SVG in the gear box on my Boxster and the diffs in both Cayennes.

One other interesting historical fact. Amsoil developed the first fully synthetic oil for automotive use in 1972. Mobil followed in 1976.

I base my decision on the best performing synthetic simply by the data that is available to us all.

Bill

[Doug H]

Hi,

a subjective opinion that one lubricant is "the best" is simply that!

I can assure readers here that any lubricant on the Porsche Approval List will perform about the same as another named there - Amsoil is not on that List!

Amsoil is a "Boutique" blender and their Additive packages are similar to many others. Amsoil have been "followers" for some time now and some product formulations have been moved to align with the major Oil Companies products!

We can expect very big developments in new lubricants yet to be released. Many are being field tested as we read!

Such lubricants (Group 4/5) will be 0w-60 for instance and will have superior "viscosity" change characteristics from hot to cold. Modern Anti Wear and other sophisticated additives will lead to "fill for life" abilities. Some modern Group 3 (semi-synthetic) lubricants already outperform many "old" Group 4 PAO synthetic lubricants at a much cheaper price!

Group 6 lubricants will be released in the not too distant future as well

So, to get this thread into perspective a subjective viewpoint that Amsoil is "the best" or "Number 1" is simply an incorrect one

Just this simple question highlights this - Why and to What criteria was this subjective judgement applied?

No Amsoil "blurb" please - just the facts from an International Body like the API, ACEA, DIN, ISO or JASO will do fine! Or even such a definitive judgement and supporting endorsed statement from a respected engine manufacturer like MB, Porsche, CAT, MTU, Toyota, Cummins or Detroit Diesel will do fine!!!

Amsoil's lubricants are not "bad" either - they are just another Boutique product though. Specification for specification there are products that are at least as good and many possibly even better and these come from Castrol, Shell, Havoline, FUCHs, Repsol, Mobil and many others - and most are cheaper too!!!

Used Oil Analysis by any Lab. is NOT a good or reliable way to compare lubricants! It is an excellent way to check the CONDITION of the lubricant at any point.

Comparing the wear metal results of one lubricant against another is at best "interesting" - in reality a UOA means very very little if anything in that regard!! Anybody suggesting otherwise is clearly mislead and unpracticed in the wonders of Tribology

Oh, who was first with a synthetic engine lubricant? - well, it was NOT Amsoil. The Germans and other companies had been there and done that in the 1930s and well prior to 1945!

Regards

Doug Hillary

Edited January 4, 2008 by Doug H

[Loren]

I guess my point was not one of who was first (Amsoil or Mobil) - nor do I believe it matters.

My point was why someone would use a non-approved oil in there Porsche knowing the engine replacement cost.

And, why (if Amsoil is so good) they can't get on a 9 page list that includes:

Addinol Lube Oil., AGIP, ARAL, BP, CASTROL, CEPSA LUBRICANTES, ChevronTexaco, ConocoPhillips, DE OLIEBRON B. V., Dollbergen, DUCKHAMS, EMKA Schmiertechnik, EXXONMOBIL, FEU VERT, FUCHS PETROLUB, GINOUVES SAS, GRUPA LOTOS, IGOL, LIQUI MOLY, MEGUIN GmbH, MORRIS, MOTUL, Muller Mineralole Handels und Beratungsgesellschaft, Olwerke Julius Schindler, PANOLIN, Pennzoil - Quaker State, Petrogal, PHRONAS OAGANGAN BERHARD, Ravensberger Schmierstoffvertrieb, REPSOL YPF, Shell, Shell TONGYI, Singpore Petroleum Company Limited, SRS, STATOIL, TAMOIL, TNK Llubricants, TOTAL, UNICORN, Unil Opal, United Oil, WAKO'S, Westfalen, WOLF Oil, and YACCO.

[Doug H]

Loren,

my point exactly!

Regards

[Bill_SoCal]

Hi Loren and Doug,

While the oils on the list are in fact Porsche approved, 95% of those engine oils I wouldn't use in my lawn mower (actually, I use small eng synthetic SAE 30w for the lawnmower). Porsche also calls our for Chevron gas in my owner's manuals (and I do use Chevron, because like Amsoil, the data clearly proves it is superior). The Magnuson-Moss Act prevents a car company from voiding an engine warranty based on oil manufacturer. You may or may not be aware of this. I will take the question posed in regard to Porsche specific lubricants back to Amsoil technical for a formal response. I'll share the information when I get it. Here's what I do know as of today:

"If you are interested in using AMSOIL motor oil, but concerned that using a synthetic oil or extending your oil drain interval will void your warranty, you have no need for concern. Congress in 1975 enacted the federal Magnuson-Moss Act to regulate written consumer product warranties. An examination of the law reveals warranties remain intact when AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants are used.

The law was meant to give consumers detailed information about warranty coverage before they buy.

Congress charged the Federal Trade Commission with creation of the specifics of the law.

The FTC set down three rules under the Act: the Disclosure Rule, the Pre-Sale Availability Rule and the Dispute Resolution Rule.

Those rules require warrantors to title their written warranty as either full or limited, provide a single, clear and easy-to-read document that spells out certain information about coverage and ensure that warranties are available where the products are sold so that consumers can read them before buying.

In passing the Act, Congress meant to give consumers access to warranty information, let consumers comparison shop for warranties, encourage warranty competition and promote timely and complete performance of warranty obligations.

While the Magnuson-Moss Act does not require manufacturers to provide a written warranty, it provides specific rules when one is provided. Among those provisions, FTC regulations state: © No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. (15 U.S.C.2302©)

That means your warranty stands when you use AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants.

Vehicle manufacturers recommend lubricants according to their viscosity grade and service classification. Any oil, whether its conventional petroleum motor oil or synthetic, meeting the correct viscosity grade, 5W-30 for example, and the current API and ILSAC North American service classifications may be used without affecting warranty coverage. AMSOIL motor oils are recommended for use in applications requiring these specifications.

Furthermore, the practice of extending oil drain intervals does not void warranties. Original equipment manufacturers pay or deny warranty claims based on the findings of failure analysis. To affect the vehicle warranty, the lubricant must be directly responsible for the failure. If the oil didn't cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of brand or length of time in use.

Synthetic motor oil was introduced to the automotive public in 1972 by AMSOIL, INC., with the world's first API rated synthetic motor oil specially formulated for long service and superior performance and protection to that of conventional oils.

Nearly 30 years ago, AMSOIL synthetics represented a vision of the future and technology ahead of their time. Since then, every major engine oil manufacturer has introduced synthetic oils of their own. To be sure, many original equipment manufacturers would like you to believe you can only use their products. However, it s a violation of the consumer protections set forth in the Magnuson-Moss Act, unless they re willing to provide you those products free of charge.

AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened. Thirty years of experience proves AMSOIL can be installed in any vehicle with complete confidence (retrieved from http://www.amsoil.com/magnuson_moss.aspx on 01/03/08)."

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but based on this information, I'm not sure I understand the warranty concern and replacement cost if Amsoil is proven to be a top performing engine oil (all backed with benchmarking data) and stands behind the performance of the product. Have you seen a replacement warranty like that from any other manufacturer? I drove my 2003 Boxster off the lot with 17 miles...I just hit 107,000 miles. I've used Amsoil since the first oil change and never had a problem with the vehicle. As a matter of fact, it's a daily driver and I average 29mpg to this day...and that's freeway driving through the San Diego mountains. The engine is sound...I installed a drive belt, front brakes, and plugs at 60K...other than that, just waiting for my 120K service (I haven't even installed rear brakes yet). Both my Cayenne's are running Amsoil and my dealership offers free oil changes for the life of each vehicle...intead of Mobil 1, it's Amsoil. Of course I have to pay for the oil...I choose to install Amsoil due to the overall performance aspects that I find superior to the 2nd best product. For me, it's simply a matter of evaluating the data.

Bill with synpsg.com