Dynaudio 342's installed

[subwiz]

Finally, I decided to purchase Dynaudio’s 342 three way speaker system and just got it back from the installer.

It seems the factory head unit is somewhat lacking with compatibility with the Alpine amp, even though I convienced myself the line level input would of worked to keep my costs down after purchasing the Dyn’s.

After chatting with the installer, this is where it gets a little hazy for my level of knowledge, it seems the only why he could connect the head unit to the Alpine amp was taking a feed from the factory amp as the fiber optic connection would not directly connect to the Alpine amp. So for right now it seems I am not hearing much from the doors and the dash speakers are a little harsh! Laymans guess, but it sounds to me like nothing below 500hz is being heard.

The installer did explain that I really need to replace the head unit, I don’t have any complaints with his work I would gladly recommend his shop to anyone. I was planning to add a new head unit down the road, but the poor sound quality is forcing me to look for a replacement now! I have already purchased a new Monster XLN 400 series cable to replace the current RCA in the photo, just researching 'reasonable' priced head units.

Also …

Currently I have the alpine amp power set to 75w per channel @ 4 Ohms, however I have two channels spare and was thinking about bridging to 145w per channel @ 4 Ohms. The Dynaudio’s claim to handle a constant 200w per channel…

I did ask the audio installer about bridging the amp, which he tried and the tweeters went into protection mode then shut down, I am presuming this is something to do with not having the head unit connected direct to the Alpine amp.

Does all that make any sense? Any comments would be appricated.

Thanks,

David.

[atmorris]

CDR23 ?

[subwiz]

CDR23 ?

Yep :)

[Chris_in_NH]

would the DynAudio's fit under the stock speaker grills and you chose to use the DynAudio grills? or was there no choice? i'm not fond of the 'bubbly' look, but as long as you like it...

it also advertises that you have expensive speakers. btw, how much were they?

if you're looking for a really good, stock-looking head unit, check out the Nakamichi CD-500. i love mine. (~$400)

Edited June 29, 2007 by Chris_in_NH

[Rom]

Hi,

Firstly, I personally would never buy a Monster cable for anything. It's WAY overpriced for what is simple technology - their marketing is what gets them sales! A good quality RCA cable (I don't mean the $2 cables) would be equally as good, especially over such a short distance. The only way to improve audio quality by any measurable amount is to used balanced line cables - in which case you'd need an amplifier capable of accepting balanced line inputs, and a balanced line transmitter to convert the standard RCA to a BLT output - or fibre-optics, which is an even bigger headache (unless you build your own custom modules).

Anyway, as to your issue...

It sounds like your installer is basically using the low-Z (impedance) output from the factory amplifier and is trying to feed it in to the high-Z RCA inputs. Either he placed a resistor (or variable resistor) in-line with the signal, or he turned the sensitivity down on the Alpine amplifier so that it's usable. The Porsche amplifier does some high-pass filtering (i.e. since it sends low frequencies only to the door speaker and >500Hz to the dash speakers - and he only tapped in to the dash speaker feed), which would explain your issues - you basically need to get a full band signal to the Alpine for it to work for you.

I've not seen the back of a MOST-compatible CDR-23 (which is what I assume it is, since you mentioned fibre-optic). If those units do NOT have the C1 connector (which contains 6 pins: FL+, FR+, RR+, RL-, Common Ground, and Remote Turn-on), then you can either just put an aftermarket head-unit, or you can get an original OEM system that does have connector C1 (e.g. an older CDR-23 or a CDR-220, or something). Then you could retain the OEM look, and still get it to work. Of course, if you have a MOST-compatible CD changer, then that won't work any more - but then again, that would be the case even if you got an aftermarket system.

I'd be interested to see a picture of the back of a MOST-compatible CDR-23, as well as a picture of the pin-out diagram normally stuck to the top of the head unit.

As for your bridging question - if he is indeed using the low-Z output from the OEM amplifier, then I suspect the amplifier went in to protection mode since the sensitivity probably couldn't go low enough to prevent the high voltage output from the OEM amplifier from exceeding the Alpine's maximum input voltage threshold (which is probably only around 4 volts). The tweeters are passive devices, so would just blow up if over loaded. The Dynaudio's come with a passive crossover, so again couldn't really go in to any kind of protection mode. The amplifier does have output protection - although I have no idea why he said it was the "tweeters" - since the tweeters, mid-range and mid-bass speakers are all being fed through a single passive crossover. There is a way to fix this - add a series resistor of suitable value between the OEM amplifier and the Alpine. That would attenuate the signal enough so that everything is happy (it's called impedance matching). However, since you are losing all of your low frequency signals anyway, it's kind of irrelevant.

Essentially, to fix your issue, you must eliminate the OEM amplifier. Someone of suitable electronic experience could easily open the OEM amplifier and tap off the high-Z signal *after* the fibre-optic conversion (essentially you can use the amplifier as a fibre-to-RCA converter at high-Z levels, and ignore the entire power output stage - this would give you a clean full-band signal). That would mean you could pretty much keep everything as-is. The alternative is a new head-unit (or OEM head-unit with line-level (high-Z) outputs, assuming your current CDR-23 doesn't have them). Either way you will be able to bridge the new Alpine and keep everything happy (and sounding good!).

If I can see a picture of your CDR-23 connectors and the pin-out diagram on top I may be able to help you more... I mean no disrespect to your installer, but too many installers have only a basic knowledge of electronics (and certainly no electronic circuit theory) and only know how to connect together off-the-shelf parts, follow instructions and physically fit components in to a car. There's a lot of science in audio engineering, and sometimes it's taken for granted! Unfortunately this can lead to consumers not having all the options since installers don't realize there are more options!

Thanks!

Shash

Edited June 29, 2007 by Rom

[subwiz]

would the DynAudio's fit under the stock speaker grills and you chose to use the DynAudio grills? or was there no choice? i'm not fond of the 'bubbly' look, but as long as you like it...

it also advertises that you have expensive speakers. btw, how much were they?

if you're looking for a really good, stock-looking head unit, check out the Nakamichi CD-500. i love mine. (~$400)

Hi Chris,

We looked at installing the Dyn's under the grills but we did not think it would fit and I did not want to hack up the factory parts. I really like the look of the speakers, but again everyone has their own taste ;)

I got a deal on the speakers, but I think they average around $1,000 - $1,2000 on the web. I think an authorized dealer is a little more ...

I have looked at the Nakamichi but I was not sure if it had just a line out, or RCA's? Also, I agree that it does look almost factory and that is a big draw for me too.

Thanks,

David.

David K.

[subwiz]

Hi Shash,

Really appreciate you taking the time to write such a detailed reply! :renntech:

As for the cable I guess it was more an impulse buy, I freaked out a little with the current set-up and opt'ed to get what I presumed was one of the best cables in my budget. I can confirm that the installed has turned down the gain on the Alpine amp and my guess was spot on with the 500Hz guess, it really does sound like a AM radio at the moment.

After reading your comments about the back of the CDR-23 and the 6 pins, etc I feel that a new head unit would be the best option, I get the feeling that the installer is not a circuit board level guy and I'd prefer avoiding the potential of the factory amp getting fried.

If you are still interested I will take some photos of the head unit when it is pulled out and replaced, but I am not sure if that is a mute point since I plan on changing the head unit out? Please let me know.

Thanks for making things a much clearer with your comments on the bridging, I believe that he is using the low-Z output and the Alpine amp kicked into protection mode. I plan to bridge the amp again when the new head unit is installed.

Thanks again,

David.

P.S. Off topic, but just out of interest my best bud's nick name from back in the day as a teenager in the UK was also called Shash, does that class as some form of irony?

[boxs2000]

Installation looks good on the speakers. Keep in mind you have on of the best speakers around, but they are only as good as the source of the signal they are coming from. There are several products out there that can cure your problems such as JL audio's clean sweep. http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansw....php?page_id=92

Personally, I would not spend the money on this item because I really think the factory head unit is not worth it. This would be different if you had the factory navi but otherwise the stock unit is the first to go. I changed mine to the Alpine cda 9885 (less than 300 bucks) and sound was good, then I switched to the Pioneer avic n3 (about 1200 bucks) and the sound was greatly improved. The bass response and the staging was totally improved in my opinion. I'm also running Alpine amps but with MB quart speakers (component) which I believe is far inferior to your dynaudio's. I really think even the cheaper alpine hu will really give you the sound you are expecting from those speakers.

As far as bridging the amp what may have happened is when you bridged it, it went down to 2ohms causing your speakers to clip (i presume the dynaudio's are 4ohm) or if remember correctly the dynaudio's has an adjustable passive x over in which he may have had it adjusted incorrectly causing the tweeter to get the wrong signal (low freq.) tripping the safety feature. Either way to use those speakers to its potential (which is probably why you bought them) you need to change head unit.

[subwiz]

Installation looks good on the speakers. Keep in mind you have on of the best speakers around, but they are only as good as the source of the signal they are coming from. There are several products out there that can cure your problems such as JL audio's clean sweep. http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansw....php?page_id=92

Personally, I would not spend the money on this item because I really think the factory head unit is not worth it. This would be different if you had the factory navi but otherwise the stock unit is the first to go. I changed mine to the Alpine cda 9885 (less than 300 bucks) and sound was good, then I switched to the Pioneer avic n3 (about 1200 bucks) and the sound was greatly improved. The bass response and the staging was totally improved in my opinion. I'm also running Alpine amps but with MB quart speakers (component) which I believe is far inferior to your dynaudio's. I really think even the cheaper alpine hu will really give you the sound you are expecting from those speakers.

As far as bridging the amp what may have happened is when you bridged it, it went down to 2ohms causing your speakers to clip (i presume the dynaudio's are 4ohm) or if remember correctly the dynaudio's has an adjustable passive x over in which he may have had it adjusted incorrectly causing the tweeter to get the wrong signal (low freq.) tripping the safety feature. Either way to use those speakers to its potential (which is probably why you bought them) you need to change head unit.

Hi Boxs2000,

Thanks for the comments, you are correct the Dyn's are 4 Ohms. I'll check the x over and see what the installer did when I get them to install a new head unit. Still looking around for this, but I do like the Nackamichi mentioned in this post by Chris_in_NH.

David.

[boxs2000]

The Nakamichi is a nice deck, I had one in old daily driver. It was a high up model, but I found their features a little behind. I'm a big ipod fan and I dont think the newer Naks have a module for it. I really like being able to control it and its out of sight so no clutter. Sound wise and features I think the pioneer, eclipse or alpine will blow the Nak away. (no offense nak guys..)

Edited June 30, 2007 by boxs2000

[subwiz]

The Nakamichi is a nice deck, I had one in old daily driver. It was a high up model, but I found their features a little behind. I'm a big ipod fan and I dont think the newer Naks have a module for it. I really like being able to control it and its out of sight so no clutter. Sound wise and features I think the pioneer, eclipse or alpine will blow the Nak away. (no offense nak guys..)

I just bid and won a used Clarion DRZ9255, should have it installed within a week or so.

[Charlestonboxster]

The Nakamichi is a nice deck, I had one in old daily driver. It was a high up model, but I found their features a little behind. I'm a big ipod fan and I dont think the newer Naks have a module for it. I really like being able to control it and its out of sight so no clutter. Sound wise and features I think the pioneer, eclipse or alpine will blow the Nak away. (no offense nak guys..)

I just bid and won a used Clarion DRZ9255, should have it installed within a week or so.

Good. A new HU will simplify everything.

If some of the night lights of the Clarion HU bother you/non factory look, you might be able to modify them.

I took apart the cover of my Alpine HU (with a small jewelry screwdriver) and put a small piece of tape over the blue glo lights, 90% removing the

color of those lights at night.

[atmorris]

Alpine makes 2 units that will fit the bill, as an alternative to the Naks, and cost a bit less. The more expensive Naks look more bone stock, but the Alpines look good as well, aren't "blingy", at least in my opinion, and the sound quality is great. Check out the Alpine CDA-9883 and 9885. The 9885 is better if you are feeding amp(s) as you are, and can swing it, because it has 4v outputs where the 9883 outputs are 2v (although 2v is fine.) It does make a difference.

As to the CDR23 - if I remember correctly, the front speaker outs are used to feed the stock amp, which then applies internal low pass filtering to the door outs (the violets and greens) making them a sort of sub system, and also feeds the rear storage speakers if you have that option. However, the CDR23 does have both front and rear channel output pinouts located on the HU. B3,4,5 and 6 are the fronts and B1,2,7,and 8 are the rears. However, these are high level outputs and as such really are not the best way to feed an amp, although it can be done. Best way is to replace the HU with maybe a Nak or Alpine unit with the number of pre outs that you want (2 sets for dash/door, or three if you have the rear storage shelf speakers or other rears.)

Edited July 5, 2007 by Andy_M

[Rom]

As far as bridging the amp what may have happened is when you bridged it, it went down to 2ohms causing your speakers to clip (i presume the dynaudio's are 4ohm) or if remember correctly the dynaudio's has an adjustable passive x over in which he may have had it adjusted incorrectly causing the tweeter to get the wrong signal (low freq.) tripping the safety feature. Either way to use those speakers to its potential (which is probably why you bought them) you need to change head unit.

The impedance of speakers doesn't change (except with frequency, but that's just normal reactance). The nominal impedance will not change, so the speakers won't suddenly present a 2 ohm load because the amplifier is bridged. I believe you're mixing two concepts up:

1) Halving the impedence: If you give any given amplifier a load of 4 ohms and it gives 100W RMS of power, presenting the same amplifer a 2 ohm load, it will (theoretically) give you 200W RMS of output. The reason is that you halved the resistance, and therefore doubled the current draw. This can be proven with the formulas (I=V/R) and (P=VI), where I = current, R = resistance, V = voltage and P = power. If voltage remains constant (as it typically does), halving 'R' doubles 'I', and therefore doubles 'P'.

2) Bridging the amplifer: If you give any given amplifer a load of 4 ohms and it gives 100W RMS of power, presenting the same load two amplifiers which are inverse to each other will (theorectically) give you 400W RMS of output. The reason is that you are taking the sine wave input and pushing it through one amplifier as-is, and inversing the signal through the other amplifier, and using the outputs as the "negative" and "positive" going to the speaker (in reality they are both signals, but the inversed signal in one amplifier creates the potential difference). That means for any given point in the waveform, you end up with twice the voltage. Using the same equations as before, doubling the voltage, also doubles the current for the same resistance, and therefore you quadruple the power output.

So, as you can see, in case 1 you have to physically change the load (speakers) to halve the impedence, and get double the power. In case 2 you leave the same speakers (and therefore the same resistance), but you use two amplifiers and end up with quadruple the power.

Anyway, subwiz - if you can take a picture of the back of that unit, that would be great - just for my future reference!

Thanks!

Shash

[subwiz]

I finally got free time to report my updates, ok here goes…

I now understand that the Clarion DRZ9255 is more complicated to install/use then I first anticipated (being a novice). The H/U has no less than eight RCA outputs for highs, mids, rear and sub.

Therefore when we connected the amp via the two channel RCA’s only and bridged the amp, we had to use what is called a 'direct' connection which in my opinion was not the best option as this block the use of many of the H/U's features including the filters and the time alignment.

I then grabbed a freebie monster cable off my neighbor and ran an extra 2 channel RCA cable myself over the weekend (could not wait to drive car to install shop) and connected what Clarion refers too as a ‘standard’ connection. This uses the high and mid RCA outputs.

Since the Alpine amp was originally installed to run bridged in two channel mode I still could not take advantage of all the H/U’s features. So, I drove the car back to the installer and he is going to run extra speaker wires so we can use the amp as a four channel system.

The dash speakers will each get 70w and the doors will get 70w, plus I get to use the H/U’s full range of features.

The car was dropped off today at the installer, but I ran out of time to drive over and collect it today. So should have an update by tomorrow…

Thanks,

David.

P.S. Message to Shash, I did not get a photo of the back of the factory H/U as your reply post was made after I had the Clarion installed, sorry. :(