Class action suit for 996 engines

[nylewis]

Just to see what the cost would be, how many people would be in for a class action suit against Porsche for 996 engine failures? Please post your car year, miles and brief description of the problem. I will try and put a list together and forward it to a law firm and see what their response is. I found this firms link seaching around. If anyone has a better firm or any input, I'm all ears.

http://www.schneiderwallace.com/PracticeAr...C&ovtac=PPC

[CosmosC4S]

Don't forget to post on rennlist as well, there are a bunch of them there who have had engine failures.

[gas-man]

I think the RMS issue should also be included in this suit. This is good number to show a trend that the engine and its components are unreliable. I have a 2001 C4 and have RMS leak. I also have tapping sound at first start in the morning but disappears when the engine warms up. No CEL and but who knows what's lurking inside.

[johnj.moran]

Just to see what the cost would be, how many people would be in for a class action suit against Porsche for 996 engine failures? Please post your car year, miles and brief description of the problem. I will try and put a list together and forward it to a law firm and see what their response is. I found this firms link seaching around. If anyone has a better firm or any input, I'm all ears.

http://www.schneiderwallace.com/PracticeAr...C&ovtac=PPC

I assume that for now you just want people that have experienced an engine failure to respond, not those that are concerned about a possible future engine failure, am I right?

[nick49]

I've been involved in several class action suits and have done nothing, nor received any compensation. I believe this type of suit does nothing but provide the law firm $ millions that handles the case and defendant gets a spanking. Most often to fully understand the legal BS in the C/A booklet describing the suit and your duties and obligations as a plaintiff, you will need to obtain legal counsel. A best case, if you win, you may receive a monitary settlement less than the cost of a cheap dinner, where your loss may have been in the $ thousands or $10Ks.

This is the "Free Transmission Inspection without obligation" of our legal system, a tool to generate revenue for legal firms.

[Tool Pants]

I have been a lawyer for 25 years, but now it is mostly just real estate. Been involved in 1or 2 real class actions, and a few bs ones.

Bought my Boxster in 1999 and went on the message boards. The problems some owners had back then are the same a new generation of owners have now, engine failures and the RMS issue, and so on. I said back then that all the griping was not going to get the attention of Porsche - but a lawsuit would. About once a month on the various message boards some poor owner drums up the class action threat, and it goes nowhere - internet chatter. Some have started websites to vent their steam, and then it goes away as they move on to another vehicle.

This is an example of the latest from Boxster owner Glenn who is on 2 Boxster message boards.

http://glenn986s.zoomshare.com/0.html

3 years ago a 996 owner with the RMS issue asked me to contact this class action law firm. I told him that any firm I would due business with would get involved involved without an expert - griping owners do not make the cut. Plus it is just an oil leak. Plus you Porsche owners are not the typical Honda owner that needs a working to car to to work. Plus Porsche is a small company and they do not crank out 1 million cars a year like Honda, Toyota, and GM

This is the firm the 996 owner asked me to contact.

http://www.schneiderwallace.com/PracticeAr...C&ovtac=PPC

I did speak to an attorney in the above firm on the phone. I told her what I thought was the cause of the RMS issue, but I am a lay person, and what I know has been told to me by the mechanics that I have come to know over the years.

Sure enough, the lawyer asked if I knew an expert. I do know someone who I consider an expert but without an engineering degree. To make a long story short, I told the attorney that this someone would not want to be at all involved, since he worked for Porsche. Same sort of reason you ain't going to get Bruce Anderson involved. So, that was the end of that.

I wish you luck.

[nylewis]

To say class action suits dont work is just wrong. I was just involved in one for a Mustang. The dealer made cheap plastic manifolds and they cracked after several years. The firm got the dealer to install new manifolds or a check for $750 for another mechanic to do it.

I was just going to provide a firm with a list of names and let them tell me if anything can be done. Are you saying Porsche can produce any product and not back it up and we have no recourse? It has been said that 5% of the engines go bad. You dont think that 1 in 20 cars have the engine blow is proof of something is wrong?

Here is the link to the Ford lawsuit.

http://www.fordmanifoldsettlement.com/index.html

Edited March 23, 2007 by nylewis

[Lee Quave]

IMO winning a class action suite against Porsche for engine failure is highly unlikely. For one thing the stats on engine failure are known only by Porsche. For another there have been more than a few causes of these failures i.e. intermix issues, IMS failures, porous engine case/heads etc…

I also think that class action lawsuits don’t pay out much to anyone other than to lawyers. I was eligible for a class action lawsuit where I could have won a few dollars but the law firm received about 4 million.

I had to have my engine replaced because of either a cracked cylinder head or a failed head gasket. I don’t which one and will never know. If I wanted to know for sure I would have had to pay for the breakdown and inspection. Porsche has ***** poor customer service. And I wouldn’t say Porsche is a small company when according to Porsche’s Annual Report 2005/06 their EBIT was $2,726,000,000 on sales of $9,397,000,000. That is a profit of 29%! Wow!!!

Check out my post:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=323635

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...engine++failure

[wvicary]

Well I'll buy your POS Porsche for 10 bucks..... if you think Porsche has problems with engines and such, you should pay attention to GM. Some GM engines(V6) have a 96% failure rate on intake gaskets... and that is GM numbers.... you going to sue them also?? Maybe a bus pass is the way forward.....??

[Tool Pants]

The post above is another reason I sort of gave up posting to these type of messages, with a bunch of internet experts, who have never even seen the engine on their Porsche vehicle.

No clue why the engine failed other than your dealer or shop said you need to replace the engine.

The heart of a Porsche is the engine, so Porsche says.

Porsche charges a bit more than GM.... All that German engineering and so on.

The thing is, for some Boxster Model Year 1999 cars, Porsche took defective blocks. Bored the cylinder out. Pressed in sleeves. Assembled the engine. Put it in a car. Sold it to the public. And some of the engines failed. I guess that is what you call keeping up with production. Then failures followed. Porsche has never admitted this happened, but there are pictures of it. Here is one of those pictures.

Then Porsche went from a double to single row bearing for the intermediate shaft, and the failures that followed. I cannot prove it, but I do see a bent intermediate shaft in the next picture.

Ignition switch, air bag light, and all the other stuff.

So much for all that German engineering.

I have no clue about GM vehicles. If GM had/has a problem with their product then GM came clean because of a lawsuit or economic conditions. It is no different than Porsche, other than sheer number of units sold by GM.

[nylewis]

Tool Pants, please ignore wvicary's post.

I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion about a known problem and see if there is a solution. I don't know if a class action suit can or will be effective. I wanted to know if anyone has explored that avenue or just gave up and wrote a large check. I see no reason not to at least look into the possibility. We are not talking about some little problem here. The high price of the engine makes it more attractive to a firm.

[Loren]

Folks - please just keep it civil here and keep it on topic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

[wvicary]

All I'm saying is every manufacturer has some kind of fault with their product.... Porsche is no different from GM,Ford,Toyota or anyone else. You take the good with the bad. Best of luck in the lawsuit.

[marcesq]

I think the RMS issue should also be included in this suit. This is good number to show a trend that the engine and its components are unreliable. I have a 2001 C4 and have RMS leak. I also have tapping sound at first start in the morning but disappears when the engine warms up. No CEL and but who knows what's lurking inside.

I can tell you within a reasonable degree of certainty what the tapping is because I had the same thing coming from the left bank. Then a couple of months ago the car started missing and would not hold an idle. I finally gave up trying the find the problem and took in to a trusted shop and they found ZERO compression in #3, stuck the boroscope in and found a bent valve. He said that he has seen lifters stick or springs break, both of which would cause the valve to hit a piston.

Now I'm looking for a motor for a '99.

On the class action issue, and being yet another lawyer ;), I have been a member (only because I held stock) of several of the class actions that were the rage against IT companies when the stock did not perform as well as expected. Cisco was one that I recall. When reviewing the final settlement documents it was clear who the winners were . . . . . however I did cash my $158 check . . . . .

[gas-man]

I think most us porsche owners does not want porsche to writing us checks but for porsche to be more sympathetic admit the fact that their product and its components were unreliable. I have a 1999 ML 430 and very grateful to the person who sued Mercedes Benz for engine failures of their MY 1998-2000 ML series. This was not even because of the engine itself but due to maintenance misunderstanding. The oil that Mercedes recommends was Mobil 1 0W-40 but for some reason this guy apparently used conventional oil and his engine failed. He sued Mercedes for this and I guess he won because I am a recipient of its settlement which is if your engine consumes more than 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles Mercedes will change the engine free of charge and they guarantee this for 150,000 miles. Maybe unbelievable but it was my dealership who told me this. My engine was changed at 149,000 miles and I have put 34000 miles on the new/remanufactured engine and no issues. I guess this is what all of us want is to have this kind of guarantee from porsche that if for some reason that their engine or components of it breakdown prematurely that they will back it up and change it even out of warranty up to a certain mileage not just 4 years or 50,000 miles.

[nylewis]

marcesp, that's what I thought the problem was. A lifter, a valve, etc. Something to do with 1 cylinder.

I got my car back today and I talked to him about the problem. He is sticking to the broken shaft theory but that's based on finding aluminum in the oil, nothing else. Due to the tapping in sync with 1 cylinder, I'm still not convinced. I still believe a valve, lifter or spring is screwed causing some wear into the head which gives you the aluminum.

I'll prob take it to a dealer when things settle and get a 2nd opinion, but for now I'm burnt.

Just for everyones info whos looking into a new engine. He said list for the new engine is 9300. He could get it for 8300. The core charge is 2300 which you have to pay upfront until Porsche confirms the engine is usable. What "usable" is with a damaged engine is anyones guess. So "out the door" around 10K for him, 11K from a dealer.

[viper501]

BMW had a serious problem with their NIKASIL series V8 engines and the I6 S54 engines in the ///M3 and the ///M Roadster / Coupes. As a result of these failures, BMW 'decided' to change out the defective engines.

And as a lawyer as well (there are way too many of us in here), I'm pretty sure that there are stats at Porsche that would be discoverable and could establish a abnormally high failure rate. There are probably also a pile of memos, letters, and emails at P-car HQ that would discuss this issue as well. Unfortunately, most of the C/A litigation I have seen is just as discussed above, the lawyers walk away with a fat wallet and the consumer/class member gets a 10% discount on their next oil change or some such nonsense.

If you're looking for C/A attorneys with experience suing manufacturers, you might try and locate the firm that was/is the class counsel for the litigation against BMW for exploding radiators. IIRC, they were from Illinois but it has been quite a while.

[nick49]

Anyone who has followed the engine failures knows that is is most often an intermix of coolant and oil caused by a failed sleeve. The sleeve has either cracked, broken or slipped causing coolant to enter the combustion chamber. This was due to porosity in the very expensive cast aluminum engine cases using a new cylinder manufacturing process whereby the cylinder itself was porous aluminum like a sponge and the pores were filled with a hard ceramic type alloy. This was called Lockasil. If defective cases were found in production, they were salvaged rather than scrapped by having a sleeve fitted most likely of Mehanite or cast iron and I would assume a plated Nicasil bore.

In my opinion, if you received a patched and salvaged case in your Porsche, whether buying new or used, you were getting short changed by the factory. You were paying a price for a product featuring a new and very expensive technology used in the manufacture of the motors promising near zero wear after over 100K miles of use and receiving something other than what was advertised.

The good news is the cars featured a 4 year warrenty and any catistrophic failures were covered usually without question. Many failures beyond the warrenty period were also covered even for other than the original purchaser. Many were covered on an individual case by case basis with varying degrees covered by Manufacturer/Dealer and owner. If you bought the car a year or more after the factory warrenty had expired and were the 2nd or 3rd owner when the engine failed, you would be extremley disappointed but probably could not hold Porsche legaly responsable.

So knowing the above, who will be the plaintiff? The guy who had a motor put in for free under the warrenty? The guy who had to pay labor for a "Goodwilled" motor? The guy who is the 3rd owner and the factory 4 year warrenty had expired years ago?

[Cesarfl]

Anyone who has followed the engine failures knows that is is most often an intermix of coolant and oil caused by a failed sleeve. The sleeve has either cracked, broken or slipped causing coolant to enter the combustion chamber. This was due to porosity in the very expensive cast aluminum engine cases using a new cylinder manufacturing process whereby the cylinder itself was porous aluminum like a sponge and the pores were filled with a hard ceramic type alloy. This was called Lockasil. If defective cases were found in production, they were salvaged rather than scrapped by having a sleeve fitted most likely of Mehanite or cast iron and I would assume a plated Nicasil bore.

In my opinion, if you received a patched and salvaged case in your Porsche, whether buying new or used, you were getting short changed by the factory. You were paying a price for a product featuring a new and very expensive technology used in the manufacture of the motors promising near zero wear after over 100K miles of use and receiving something other than what was advertised.

The good news is the cars featured a 4 year warrenty and any catistrophic failures were covered usually without question. Many failures beyond the warrenty period were also covered even for other than the original purchaser. Many were covered on an individual case by case basis with varying degrees covered by Manufacturer/Dealer and owner. If you bought the car a year or more after the factory warrenty had expired and were the 2nd or 3rd owner when the engine failed, you would be extremley disappointed but probably could not hold Porsche legaly responsable.

So knowing the above, who will be the plaintiff? The guy who had a motor put in for free under the warrenty? The guy who had to pay labor for a "Goodwilled" motor? The guy who is the 3rd owner and the factory 4 year warrenty had expired years ago?

Good point, I think for anyone trying to follow suit, It will take a huge law firm with very big cojones to go after Porsche for defective manufacturing, specillially when most or all the engines are swapped for a new or rebuilt unit by the same manufacturer. It will be hard to really find the "real" issue and pinpoint the liability to the manufacturer additionally a very good translator will be necessary.

I wonder how many of the new/remanufacture engines are showing the same problem, now that would be real good info to share at least at this forum level to substantiate the failure rate of a OE poweplant and a new/rebuilt exchange.

[marcesq]

marcesp, that's what I thought the problem was. A lifter, a valve, etc. Something to do with 1 cylinder.

I got my car back today and I talked to him about the problem. He is sticking to the broken shaft theory but that's based on finding aluminum in the oil, nothing else. Due to the tapping in sync with 1 cylinder, I'm still not convinced. I still believe a valve, lifter or spring is screwed causing some wear into the head which gives you the aluminum.

I'll prob take it to a dealer when things settle and get a 2nd opinion, but for now I'm burnt.

Just for everyones info whos looking into a new engine. He said list for the new engine is 9300. He could get it for 8300. The core charge is 2300 which you have to pay upfront until Porsche confirms the engine is usable. What "usable" is with a damaged engine is anyones guess. So "out the door" around 10K for him, 11K from a dealer.

A simple compression test was the trick in my case. 1 was at zero, 2 & 3 below spec. Opinion was lifter or spring on 1, variocam problem on 2 & 3.

Good luck.

I am sorry that my original response about the class action was terse. Gas man is right. A class action might get Porsche to see the light. However food for thought starting with '77 and the snapping head studs, then in the late 80's valve guides & rod bolts on the 3.2s, bad head to cylinder seal system in the 964, and bad valve guides and poor cylinder to block sealing o-rings on all 3.6s. Seems like a lot of problems for such a high end vehicle.

[Johnnyceesred]

Just to see what the cost would be, how many people would be in for a class action suit against Porsche for 996 engine failures? Please post your car year, miles and brief description of the problem. I will try and put a list together and forward it to a law firm and see what their response is. I found this firms link seaching around. If anyone has a better firm or any input, I'm all ears.

http://www.schneiderwallace.com/PracticeAr...C&ovtac=PPC

Hi,

I've got a thread relating to engine problems see http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...t=0&start=0

The thread shows a complete history of the situation.

As a brief summary of my actions, I took a series of photos of my problem engine the main complaint about which is a defective crank cradle identified when the engine was disassembled by the independent I use. Because I use the car for business I had to buy an exchange engine as I had to limit the amount of time the car was off the road. It was still off the road from November 11th 2006 to the middle of February this year anyway.

I have complained to Porsche GB Customer Assistance under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 within English Law and after a series of e-mails and letters they advised me to get an independent report done on the defects. This was done by The RAC (Royal Automobile Club) a motoring organisation in the UK. I subsequently got a specialist metallurgy company to report on the evidence as well as recommended by The RAC and submitted this to Porsche GB. Both reports said the component in question had manufacture-related defects, was sub-standard and should not have been fitted in the engine in the first place as it was not fit for purpose.

The latest letter I received last Friday from Porsche GB still refused my claim so I have obtained the direct e-mail address of Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking, President and CEO of Porsche AG and have e-mailed him today with the details of the defects and have requested his assistance in resolving the situation.

I'll keep my thread updated with the next events.

Rgds

John

[HONEYMON57ER]

Just to see what the cost would be, how many people would be in for a class action suit against Porsche for 996 engine failures? Please post your car year, miles and brief description of the problem. I will try and put a list together and forward it to a law firm and see what their response is. I found this firms link seaching around. If anyone has a better firm or any input, I'm all ears.

http://www.schneiderwallace.com/PracticeAr...C&ovtac=PPC

Hi,

I've got a thread relating to engine problems see http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...t=0&start=0

The thread shows a complete history of the situation.

As a brief summary of my actions, I took a series of photos of my problem engine the main complaint about which is a defective crank cradle identified when the engine was disassembled by the independent I use. Because I use the car for business I had to buy an exchange engine as I had to limit the amount of time the car was off the road. It was still off the road from November 11th 2006 to the middle of February this year anyway.

I have complained to Porsche GB Customer Assistance under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 within English Law and after a series of e-mails and letters they advised me to get an independent report done on the defects. This was done by The RAC (Royal Automobile Club) a motoring organisation in the UK. I subsequently got a specialist metallurgy company to report on the evidence as well as recommended by The RAC and submitted this to Porsche GB. Both reports said the component in question had manufacture-related defects, was sub-standard and should not have been fitted in the engine in the first place as it was not fit for purpose.

The latest letter I received last Friday from Porsche GB still refused my claim so I have obtained the direct e-mail address of Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking, President and CEO of Porsche AG and have e-mailed him today with the details of the defects and have requested his assistance in resolving the situation.

I'll keep my thread updated with the next events.

Rgds

John

Any update on this yet?

[wdonovan]

Class action = thousands of those damaged getting 5 bucks each + one law firm getting millions.

[porschinator]

Well Porsche states that 65-70% of ALL Porsches ever built are still on the roads. So Porsche obviously wants the Sports Car public to believe its vehicles are reliable and they are paying a premium for it. I still believe they are one of the most reliable Sports Cars autos around. The people that make the most noise are always the ones that have/had the misfortune of having a bad experience. People that have no problems never rant on forums. So in essense it seems like Porsche has big reliability issues if you read forums with individuals having issues and posting them.

I think the BIG picture would say something else. Porsche cars are no longer 'mostly' made by hand. Porsche is also the most profitable automaker. Amazing...

If you want to get Porsche's attention you have to finda way to send a big message to them. Like creating a site dedicated to Porsche defects with the infamous RMS issue, etc. Then send the link to them and see if they react. Definitely wait until the HIT numbers are high. Maybe even notify auto mags about it. Porsche seeing it in euro auto mags would get attn! lol

Edited May 7, 2007 by porschinator

[zdr2k]

Well Porsche states that 65-70% of ALL Porsches ever built are still on the roads. So Porsche obviously wants the Sports Car public to believe its vehicles are reliable and they are paying a premium for it. I still believe they are one of the most reliable Sports Cars autos around. The people that make the most noise are always the ones that have/had the misfortune of having a bad experience. People that have no problems never rant on forums. So in essense it seems like Porsche has big reliability issues if you read forums with individuals having issues and posting them.

I think the BIG picture would say something else. Porsche cars are no longer 'mostly' made by hand. Porsche is also the most profitable automaker. Amazing...

If you want to get Porsche's attention you have to finda way to send a big message to them. Like creating a site dedicated to Porsche defects with the infamous RMS issue, etc. Then send the link to them and see if they react. Definitely wait until the HIT numbers are high. Maybe even notify auto mags about it. Porsche seeing it in euro auto mags would get attn! lol

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