Engine Failure

[Lee Quave]

I’ve been told that my engine needs to be replaced. :cursing: A couple gallons of coolant entered the block, from either a crack cylinder head or failed gasket, and has wrecked havoc on the rings, bearings and other internal parts. The Porsche service manager said the leak down test points to one or the other but doesn’t know which one until the engine is removed. He said Porsche recommends replacement rather than trying to rebuild and that it would cost just as much to rebuild as to replace. He quoted me $13,200 total. I have a few questions and would like some opinions and advice: :help:

• Seeing that my car has less than 70,000 miles, 50,000 of which I put on since buying the car less than two years ago, and has never been raced and I’ve done only one DE event, should the cylinder head crack or the gasket fail? I haven’t driven the car extremely hard and I change the oil every 5000 miles. The RMS was changed when the clutch was replaced even though it wasn’t leaking.

• Are head gaskets prone to catastrophic failure? I had the 60,000 mile major maintenance completed a few months ago with no issues. Could or should this problem have been detected then?

• Do I have any hope that Porsche would help with the cost, bearing the above in mind? I see no way that this problem could have been caused by anything other than poor design and/or defective parts or workmanship. I don’t buy the “accidents happen” theory.

• Have the problems with RMS and intermediate shaft been fixed on Porsche rebuilt engines?

• Would it be advisable and/or cost effective to upgrade to a 3.6 engine?

• Is $13,200 price reasonable or is it too high?

I’ve been a life long fan of Porsche cars and it’s very upsetting and discouraging that a car costing this much and promoted as being reliable could have a failure of this nature with so little miles.

Lee

[Lee Quave]

I Keep forgeting to put in my Car information. I have a 99 C2 with six speed manual transmission.

[1999Porsche911]

Unfortunately, this is a problem that has occurred before. Personally, especially since they want $13,000 for a new engine, I would either personally take the engine apart or have someone else do so and video tape the entire process. I would want to know EXACTLY what caused the problem and if in fact it was a pourous block or slipped sleeve, you can bet that Porsche would replace the entire engine, free of material and labor charges as well as the cost of disassembly of the bad engine. The video of the bad engine would make fro a great show on the worldwide stage of YOUTUBE. :cheers:

Short of doing the above at the risk of finding out that it was not caused by a manufacturer's defect and having to pay for a new engine anyway and also absorb the cost of identifying the problem, your best choice is probably just having the engine replaced and never knowing what the cause of the problem was.

If there was leakage of water into the cylinders because of a leaky head gasket, you would have had more than enough warning of a problem before engine damage occured. Did you have any steam out of the exhaust?

The price I heard for engine replacement is closer to $10,000.

Edited January 4, 2007 by 1999Porsche911

[Lee Quave]

Unfortunately, this is a problem that has occurred before. Personally, especially since they want $13,000 for a new engine, I would either personally take the engine apart or have someone else do so and video tape the entire process. I would want to know EXACTLY what caused the problem and if in fact it was a pourous block or slipped sleeve, you can bet that Porsche would replace the entire engine, free of material and labor charges as well as the cost of disassembly of the bad engine. The video of the bad engine would make fro a great show on the worldwide stage of YOUTUBE. :cheers:

Short of doing the above at the risk of finding out that it was not caused by a manufacturer's defect and having to pay for a new engine anyway and also absorb the cost of identifying the problem, your best choice is probably just having the engine replaced and never knowing what the cause of the problem was.

If there was leakage of water into the cylinders because of a leaky head gasket, you would have had more than enough warning of a problem before engine damage occured. Did you have any steam out of the exhaust?

The price I heard for engine replacement is closer to $10,000.

I put maybe 70 miles on the engine with coolant in the oil and had only a little smoke for one side. There were no other signs of trouble. The temp and oil pressure were normal and the engine sounded and felt the same. See my post on the coolant issue below.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=12030

[Westcoaster]

You didn't say if you really wanted to spend that much to repair the car, so have you considered an engine from a wrecker?

Just curious how this level of repair compares with other less expensive cars?

(you may have noticed that I am not used to this level of repair, read expensive)

Edited January 4, 2007 by Westcoaster

[Lee Quave]

You didn't say if you really wanted to spend that much to repair the car, so have you considered an engine from a wrecker?

Just curious how this level of repair compares with other less expensive cars?

(you may have noticed that I am not used to this level of repair, read expensive)

Al,

No I don’t want to spend $13,000 on a remanufactured engine but I also don’t think the option of getting an engine from a salvage operator would be any better. The remanufactured engine comes with just about everything expect the AC compressor whereas a salvage yard would likely sell just sell the block. That how it is done with domestic car I wouldn’t think it would be any different with a Porsche. Most likely there wouldn’t be any warranty whereas the Porsche rebuilt engine comes with a two year unlimited miles warranty. Then there is the uncertainty of the condition of the used engine i.e. RMS and intermediate shaft. I would also have to find a quality shop to remove the old engine and install the replacement engine. I’m sure I could save some money but I’m not sure how much and I wouldn’t have a warranty.

A found a company on the web, Motor Meister, out of California that sells rebuilt 3.4L engines for $6,000 with a rebuildable exchange. The remanufactured engine from Porsche with all the improvements cost $8,129 with the exchange plus a couple of hundred more for antifreeze, Freon and oil. The labor estimate comes in at 36 hours at $102.50 per hour.

[deschodt]

Let me be the first to say: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Stay the hell away from motormeister, run forest, run !

[Cesarfl]

That's bad man, after 69,000 miles, it should be a very rare event to have an engine go bad like that. Question how many, well that won't work, anyway, I have 65,000 miles on my car, I ask anyway, how many forum members have this kind of problem after driving the car for 60K + miles. This is not a survey just a quick check up.

[PeterK]

According to this : http://www.autofarm.co.uk/new.php3/911PW_Apr06.pdf

You might have a cracked cylinder wall in either cylinder 2 or 5 (e.g. a middle cylinder).

[PeterK]

You didn't say if you really wanted to spend that much to repair the car, so have you considered an engine from a wrecker?

Just curious how this level of repair compares with other less expensive cars?

(you may have noticed that I am not used to this level of repair, read expensive)

Al,

No I don’t want to spend $13,000 on a remanufactured engine but I also don’t think the option of getting an engine from a salvage operator would be any better. The remanufactured engine comes with just about everything expect the AC compressor whereas a salvage yard would likely sell just sell the block. That how it is done with domestic car I wouldn’t think it would be any different with a Porsche. Most likely there wouldn’t be any warranty whereas the Porsche rebuilt engine comes with a two year unlimited miles warranty. Then there is the uncertainty of the condition of the used engine i.e. RMS and intermediate shaft. I would also have to find a quality shop to remove the old engine and install the replacement engine. I’m sure I could save some money but I’m not sure how much and I wouldn’t have a warranty.

A found a company on the web, Motor Meister, out of California that sells rebuilt 3.4L engines for $6,000 with a rebuildable exchange. The remanufactured engine from Porsche with all the improvements cost $8,129 with the exchange plus a couple of hundred more for antifreeze, Freon and oil. The labor estimate comes in at 36 hours at $102.50 per hour.

There is a company in UK called autofarm.co.uk that sells porsche engines that have been rebuilt with properly strong sleeves. I don't think they have an US distrubutor.

[PeterK]

You didn't say if you really wanted to spend that much to repair the car, so have you considered an engine from a wrecker?

Just curious how this level of repair compares with other less expensive cars?

(you may have noticed that I am not used to this level of repair, read expensive)

I can only talk about corvettes. There a used engine in an excellent condition will set you up between $2 and $5K

[Johnnyceesred]

Lee,

We may have some common ground in the engine rebuild/replacement question and what Porsche's actions may be, if you've seen my topic Misfire 2003 996 C4S 118,000 miles. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11615

What started out as a misfire moving from one bank of cylinders to the other which couldn't be diagnosed with certainty, has now progressed to a full engine dismantle and tomorrow I'm taking the parts in the photos in the topic to the OPC where I bought the car from to progress matters.

As was stated in the replies to your topic, I think it's important to have a good degree of photographic evidence to encourage and secure all reasonable assistance whilst seeking a problem identification and resolution.

Good luck with your situation.

Best regards

John

Edited January 5, 2007 by Johnnyceesred

[Richard Hamilton]

There is a company in UK called autofarm.co.uk that sells porsche engines that have been rebuilt with properly strong sleeves. I don't think they have an US distrubutor.

The cylinder blocks/liners that Autofarm use are made by Perfect Bore in Andover, UK (http://www.perfectbore.com). It might be worth contacting them to see if they have a US distributor.

[PeterK]

There is a company in UK called autofarm.co.uk that sells porsche engines that have been rebuilt with properly strong sleeves. I don't think they have an US distrubutor.

The cylinder blocks/liners that Autofarm use are made by Perfect Bore in Andover, UK (http://www.perfectbore.com). It might be worth contacting them to see if they have a US distributor.

Yep.

I really like what they are doing. Like turning 3.6l blocks into properly strong 3.8l blocks for less money than porsche would charge you for a 3.6l replacement. Hopefully they will recognize that US could be a lucrative market for them and open a local distribution center.

[Lee Quave]

Lee,

We may have some common ground in the engine rebuild/replacement question and what Porsche's actions may be, if you've seen my topic Misfire 2003 996 C4S 118,000 miles. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11615

What started out as a misfire moving from one bank of cylinders to the other which couldn't be diagnosed with certainty, has now progressed to a full engine dismantle and tomorrow I'm taking the parts in the photos in the topic to the OPC where I bought the car from to progress matters.

As was stated in the replies to your topic, I think it's important to have a good degree of photographic evidence to encourage and secure all reasonable assistance whilst seeking a problem identification and resolution.

Good luck with your situation.

Best regards

John

John,

I read your post along with as many others as I could find having to do with engine failure. I hope your issue is favorably resolved. It would be great to get photos of the suspect parts as you have but the dealer doesn’t plan to dismantle the engine unless I or PCNA pays for the work at $102.50 per hour.

I called Porsche’s customer service number and told the person who answered the phone that I wanted to talk to someone about my engine failure. I though it was strange that he said he could answer my questions. I related my story to him. He then asked me what I propose they do. I told him that I wasn’t looking for them to give me an engine but at the same time I don’t think that Porsche should profit on replacing an engine that should not have failed in the first place. I told him that it would be fair and reasonable for Porsche to provide the parts and labor at cost. He gave me the standard reply that Porsche doesn’t pay on out of warranty cars. I was unhappy that he wouldn’t transfer me to someone else. He said my only recourse was to write a letter to PCNA. I am sure the work on my car will be finished before they respond to a letter and I’m afraid that once they have my money it would be unlikely that they would give me any money back. Any help with contact information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Lee

[Johnnyceesred]

Lee,

Your experience with Porsche Customer Service is not disimilar to mine in the UK. Their standard response is that they do not speak directly with Customers on a deep technical level, they manage problem situations through the OPC network. I have tried escalating my original misfire + metal in the sump problem to the Porsche Cars GB Customer Services Director and also tried a "face-to-face" approach as I'm often in the area where Porsche GB HQ is, though with no positive result so far (although this did work when I had a split coolant hose out of warranty cover). I wasn't too disappointed with the situation as the engine wasn't in a dismantled state and I couldn't have provided the OPC involved with the photos and faulty parts they now have.

When the original misfire occurred, the OPC I bought the car from wanted £2,500.00+TAX just to take the engine out as they thought it was a broken valve spring, which we've since proved it wasn't. The specialist I use has a very good and long working relationship with that OPC and hence I decided to stick with that route. I admit that we haven't discussed the cost of the dismantling work he's done so far but his labour cost is £45 per hour compared to the £105-£130 per hour of Porsche OPCs. He's also very customer-oriented and his principle is to limit the costs to his cusomers to retain goodwill and relationships.

My suggestion would be to seek a meeting with the OPC that has your car including the Services Manager/Director and or Dealer Principal and try and achieve a level of empathy to then persuade PCNA to be a little more flexible. I'm not sure whether you purchased the car from the OPC where it now is, but if so I'd get the orginal sales person involved in that meeting as well. Maybe you could conference call to PCNA at that time or establish a convernient time to do so. Also I'm happy for you to use any section of my topic as a help and I would also try to obtain some evidence where other owners have had out of warranty successes. Failing that do you have a local specialist that could help you keep the costs down?

My current approach is to be as helpful with info and evidence as I can be to all concerned, get the original sales person "on-side" and to comply with the Porsche fault escalation procedures for the time being. Although with this problem starting in early November and the fact that I've been driving my wife's car since then for my business commitments, you can guess she 's getting very :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :censored: by now!!!

I delivered the suspect crank cradle to the OPC on Saturday and they will then need to send these to Porsche GB's office for their response. Given the high mileage of my car and the fact that they probably wouldn't have seen a similar car/mileage/problem situation before, I'm hoping that as this may be breaking new ground for them, I'll get a sympathetic response as they wouldn't have an similar example to refer to.

Best regards

John

Edited January 7, 2007 by Johnnyceesred

[viper501]

I am just wondering at what point someone is going to initiate a class action lawsuit about these failures. Its clear that there have been many more than one should expect on any modern automobile, much less one of this caliber.

[gas-man]

I second Viper501 comments. high end cars like this should not have this kind of problem. Mercedes Benz was sued for the oil consumption problem on the ML 98-99 model V6 and V8 engines. The guy that sued them actually put regular oil instead od recommended mobil1 0w-40 and won and am a benefeciary of such suit. Mercedes has this warranty now for the V6-V8 engines 98-99 that they replaced free of charge up to 150,000 if it consumes oil. Mine was replaced at 149,200 miles . Somebody just have to initiate this thing and force Porsche to step-up especially for the RMS issue where a lot of owners have had problems.

[MalT]

BMW had a problem with their first 3.0l V8 units in the UK in the late 90s. High sulpher in the fuel here cased premature bore wear & caused a misfire, they quietly exchanged all afftected engines in or out of warrenty if they had the fault. Mine was dome at 60k miles & well out of warrenty. It was good customer PR & stopped people jumping up & down & going to the press. If my Porky needed a new engine at 70k I would be very unhappy. Don't let them win... give em hell!

Mal

Edited January 11, 2007 by MalT

[Lee Quave]

BMW had a problem with their first 3.0l V8 units in the UK in the late 90s. High sulpher in the fuel here cased premature bore wear & caused a misfire, they quietly exchanged all afftected engines in or out of warrenty if they had the fault. Mine was dome at 60k miles & well out of warrenty. It was good customer PR & stopped people jumping up & down & going to the press. If my Porky needed a new engine at 70k I would be very unhappy. Don't let them win... give em hell!

Mal

I won’t give up without a fight that’s for sure. :angry:

I sent an overnight letter this Monday and called again just yesterday. I again received “its Porsche’s policy that we don’t provide good will assistance on a vehicle that is out of warranty.” The CSR wouldn’t transfer me to anyone of higher authority because they aren’t allowed to. I told him that these policies sure don’t build good will with customers. :soapbox: This guy was a little more forceful and defensive that the first CSR I dealt with. I guest the computer told him to step it up to the next level since it was repeat call. My car will be ready either Monday or Tuesday at the latest and I’m sure they won’t let me have my car without payment and I’m not going to let them keep it while I wait on PCNA respond being its their policy to respond within 15 days of receiving a request.

I sure don’t feel the love from Porsche.

[pjslowik]

Dave Martin vp, pcna

dmartin@porschecars.com

Edited March 20, 2007 by pjslowik

[viper501]

I'd strongly suggest a consumer law attorney. The statement that Porsche doesn't goodwill cars that are out of warranty is ridiculous on its face. Why would they have to good will a car that was in warranty? Its in warranty for God's sake. If you have a problem finding one, shoot me a P.M. and I'll touch base with a colleague of mine in Jackson.

[Lee Quave]

I'd strongly suggest a consumer law attorney. The statement that Porsche doesn't goodwill cars that are out of warranty is ridiculous on its face. Why would they have to good will a car that was in warranty? Its in warranty for God's sake. If you have a problem finding one, shoot me a P.M. and I'll touch base with a colleague of mine in Jackson.

Vipor501 thanks for the offer of assistance. They use the good will assistance statement to make it sound like they are supporting a charity when in fact they should be supporting their customers by backing their product. It shouldn’t matter that my car is out of warranty because the components in question should not have failed.

Thanks again

Lee

[viper501]

No problem. Just let me know if you need some more 'professional' assistance.

[gas-man]

I believe that Porsche has not have a suit against a failure of their components that is why they are not flexible with regards to this kind of claims. They think Porsche owners have money in the first place anyway and that they will not pursue these things for lack of time or just swallow the loss. I have had RMS issue during warranty time as well as out of warranty. My second RMS has again failed and I'm tired of bringing it back to the dealership. Again, failures of engine/car components like these should have been addressed. It has been addressed alright as they claim of improving the design of the seal but the owners still has to swallow the cost of repairs and wait and see if the new seal will not leak. To sight another example was with the Harmonic balancer for the V8 engines of Mercedes Benz and after so many failures and from pressures from so many consumers that they decided to change each and every harmonic balancer there was even if it was not failing again free of charge. I have been a Benz owner as well as a porsche owner for a while now and love both cars but I guess Daimler recognizes when they know they have defective product. This problem was discussed in the Benzworld forum and I guess somebody decided to do something about it. I am not a lawyer or do not anybody that is that is why I asking any member of this forum if there is any chance that Porsche will acknowledge that they have some defective product (RMS issue, premature engine failure) and should step up and make it right. Common all you "legal eagles"