Engine Failure 2003 996 C4S 118,000 miles, Gearbox failure and replace

[Johnnyceesred]

New engine has arrived at the OPC ready for collection by the specialist early next week.

The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward.

Have a good weekend.

Rgds

John

[PeterK]

New engine has arrived at the OPC ready for collection by the specialist early next week.

The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward.

Have a good weekend.

Rgds

John

Keep us posted!

[Johnnyceesred]

New engine has arrived at the OPC ready for collection by the specialist early next week.

The RAC have offered to assist and have said they'd do some initial work with the photos I've sent to them to make sure they have the right level of expertise. Apparently one of their specialists is an ex-Porsche mechanic so I hope that will be an advantage. Porsche have also confirmed verbally that they will recognise and accept The RAC as a trusted report-provider. Whether they will take positive action on any resulting report will remain to be seen but at least it's a couple of steps further forward.

Have a good weekend.

Rgds

John

Keep us posted!

Certainly will do. Would National Motor Club www.nmca.com be your equivalent to The RAC in the US?

Rgds

John

Edited January 20, 2007 by Johnnyceesred

[Johnnyceesred]

The RAC have agreed that the cracking and fracturing are abnormal and not down to normal wear & tear. They will provide me with a report (cost around £140) to send to Porsche GB with their conclusions. They suggest the next step would be a metallurgical examination (industrial x-rays etc.) to determine the nature of the cracks and fractures.

The new engine arrived at the specialist today and the old one's now at the OPC where I bought the car from. I now have to consider the next step in determining whether Porsche GB will accept The RAC report and admit that the crank cradle was sub-standard and make me an offer based on that. If it needs the metallurgical examination before any further progress can be made, that would beg the question who pays for the part to be taken out of the old engine and the x-rays tests etc. The estimate for testing is £500-£600. If all of the next costs are down to me, is it worth taking the risks of these without any guarantee of a positive outcome in my favour?

Still it's useful to know of the processes and options open to us owners in the event similar situations occur to other members.

Rgds

John

[viper501]

I think I'd be willing to kick in ten bucks to have that report done with the results available to the community at large. It would probably help substantially in pushing Porsche to back up the product, especially given the news that they supposedly have a $28k profit per car ...

[b-man]

I'd kick in some money too . . . it's a way to stick it to Porsche.

b-man

[Johnnyceesred]

I think I'd be willing to kick in ten bucks to have that report done with the results available to the community at large. It would probably help substantially in pushing Porsche to back up the product, especially given the news that they supposedly have a $28k profit per car ...

Interesting thought Viper and b-man, thanks for the offers..

Are you suggesting getting a number of people contributing to the RAC Report or the metallurgy test (or both). The ultimate level of information to ensure maximum results would be expensive to acquire if I don't get a result from Porsche with just the RAC report i.e.: -

1. RAC report £140

2. Dismantling engine again to get crank cradle out for metallurgy test £500? (if Porsche won't do it FOC)

3. Metallurgy test £500-£600

plus would there be any copyright isuues or restriction of re-print etc?

It's a pity I didn't think of this route whilst the old engine was in pieces but it does take a certain set of circumstances I guess to take you to this level of action anyway. Still if I've got enough persuasive powers to get customers to place $Million orders with me, this will be a true test of skill to get a result with the info I'll have to hand once I've got the RAC report.

Does anyone think it would useful to start a separate associated topic to get the broadest response from Renntech members, if the contribution route would get enough funds together depending on the level we would need to go to?

Rgds

John

[b-man]

I think I'd be willing to kick in ten bucks to have that report done with the results available to the community at large. It would probably help substantially in pushing Porsche to back up the product, especially given the news that they supposedly have a $28k profit per car ...

Interesting thought Viper and b-man, thanks for the offers..

Are you suggesting getting a number of people contributing to the RAC Report or the metallurgy test (or both). The ultimate level of information to ensure maximum results would be expensive to acquire if I don't get a result from Porsche with just the RAC report i.e.: -

1. RAC report £140

2. Dismantling engine again to get crank cradle out for metallurgy test £500? (if Porsche won't do it FOC)

3. Metallurgy test £500-£600

plus would there be any copyright isuues or restriction of re-print etc?

It's a pity I didn't think of this route whilst the old engine was in pieces but it does take a certain set of circumstances I guess to take you to this level of action anyway. Still if I've got enough persuasive powers to get customers to place $Million orders with me, this will be a true test of skill to get a result with the info I'll have to hand once I've got the RAC report.

Does anyone think it would useful to start a separate associated topic to get the broadest response from Renntech members, if the contribution route would get enough funds together depending on the level we would need to go to?

Rgds

John

John, I would make a donation to you to offset some of the costs you incur with this entire project, not a specific part of it. I would just need some reassurance that this is legitimate (please don't take that personally), that it's relatively easy to make the payment (paypal?), that the money gets to you, and that you would fight this hard with Porsche. In a sense, you would represent all of us in this "reverse class action" law suit. :)

If you were going to collect funds, I think the proper thing to do would be to check with the moderators here to make sure it's OK.

I don't think Porsche builds good water cooled engines. A lot of people like us are getting screwed. So, it's going to take special circumstances like this to fight back and make a statement.

Regarding copyright issues, I believe as long as you don't sell or profit from the disclosure of a document, there is no copyright infringement.

By the way, my last car was a VW Golf with 230,000 miles on it. It ran great (better than my 2002 911 when it had half that many miles on it) until I sold it. I ran that car MUCH harder than I run my Porsche . . .

b-man

Edited January 23, 2007 by b-man

[viper501]

I think its a great idea. They seem to be independent and have credentials that are satisfactory to Porsche. I'm more than happy to contribute toward an independent scientific report on the problem. A metallurgical problem is a manufacturing defect that is sure to be more than an isolated incident, a la porous block problems. Maybe this will spur Porsche into doing what BMW did with their Nikasil fiasco.

[Johnnyceesred]

I think I'd be willing to kick in ten bucks to have that report done with the results available to the community at large. It would probably help substantially in pushing Porsche to back up the product, especially given the news that they supposedly have a $28k profit per car ...

Interesting thought Viper and b-man, thanks for the offers..

Are you suggesting getting a number of people contributing to the RAC Report or the metallurgy test (or both). The ultimate level of information to ensure maximum results would be expensive to acquire if I don't get a result from Porsche with just the RAC report i.e.: -

1. RAC report £140

2. Dismantling engine again to get crank cradle out for metallurgy test £500? (if Porsche won't do it FOC)

3. Metallurgy test £500-£600

plus would there be any copyright isuues or restriction of re-print etc?

It's a pity I didn't think of this route whilst the old engine was in pieces but it does take a certain set of circumstances I guess to take you to this level of action anyway. Still if I've got enough persuasive powers to get customers to place $Million orders with me, this will be a true test of skill to get a result with the info I'll have to hand once I've got the RAC report.

Does anyone think it would useful to start a separate associated topic to get the broadest response from Renntech members, if the contribution route would get enough funds together depending on the level we would need to go to?

Rgds

John

John, I would make a donation to you to offset some of the costs you incur with this entire project, not a specific part of it. I would just need some reassurance that this is legitimate (please don't take that personally), that it's relatively easy to make the payment (paypal?), that the money gets to you, and that you would fight this hard with Porsche. In a sense, you would represent all of us in this "reverse class action" law suit. :)

If you were going to collect funds, I think the proper thing to do would be to check with the moderators here to make sure it's OK.

I don't think Porsche builds good water cooled engines. A lot of people like us are getting screwed. So, it's going to take special circumstances like this to fight back and make a statement.

Regarding copyright issues, I believe as long as you don't sell or profit from the disclosure of a document, there is no copyright infringement.

By the way, my last car was a VW Golf with 230,000 miles on it. It ran great (better than my 2002 911 when it had half that many miles on it) until I sold it. I ran that car MUCH harder than I run my Porsche . . .

b-man

Hi b-man and Viper,

You have brought up an important point I was going to make anyway in that whatever we decide to do needs the authorisation of the relevant Renntech moderators Loren etc., to ensure we would note break any of the rules of conduct and membership. I guess speed is of the essence as now the complete old engine is back in the Porsche network, I suspect they'll want to get it back to Stuttgart ASAP. I did state in my last letter to them that I wanted their commitment that the engine would stay at the OPC or Reading until the situation is resolved. I hope that I can get a result without having to go the extremes though.

Rgds

John

[Lee Quave]

John,

I as well would gladly throw in a few dollars to help with the expenses.

It appears that you are doing better than I in your dealings with Porsche. I received a letter saying that they will not be in a position to provide any additional consideration to me on this matter. I’m not really sure what they mean by that statement but, I take it that they won’t response to any further inquiries from me.

Good luck to you.

Lee

[Scouser]

You can count me in John for £50. That's about $95 for you yanks out there ;)

I have been trying to stick one on Porsche GB for a long time after my RMS fiasco (which is still ongoing) and my Gearbox screw up.

The only thing I would ask is to be kept fully informed of what's going on and that I get to see a copy of all the communication and reports

either on the forum or via email etc. I think that you shopuld also canvas PCGB (yes I am reading your thread their too). If PCGB cant help

and back you in this matter (especially with the RAC report) then I dont see me renewing my membership with them again. However, it may be

interesting to see the outcome with PCGB since it is now NOT wholly independent. As of last year Porsche now own PCGB.

Another thing to do is to think about writing up a full account of your story for the mags.

Keep up the good work John. Let me know your paypal details.

[PeterK]

Great idea!

Why don't you set up a paypal account and I'll forward you $25 toward the report costs!

[Johnnyceesred]

You can count me in John for £50. That's about $95 for you yanks out there ;)

I have been trying to stick one on Porsche GB for a long time after my RMS fiasco (which is still ongoing) and my Gearbox screw up.

The only thing I would ask is to be kept fully informed of what's going on and that I get to see a copy of all the communication and reports

either on the forum or via email etc. I think that you shopuld also canvas PCGB (yes I am reading your thread their too). If PCGB cant help

and back you in this matter (especially with the RAC report) then I dont see me renewing my membership with them again. However, it may be

interesting to see the outcome with PCGB since it is now NOT wholly independent. As of last year Porsche now own PCGB.

Another thing to do is to think about writing up a full account of your story for the mags.

Keep up the good work John. Let me know your paypal details.

Scouser, Viper, b-man, Lee

Thankyou all very much for the kind donation offers. Here's where things are at as of late today (Wednesday 24/01/2007): -

1. The RAC have offered to provide me with a report based on the photos I submitted to them with there conclusions based on what they can see from the various shots taken. They said they will state that there is definite grinding, fracturing and flaking and in their opinion this is not normal wear and tear. The conclusion will reflect the fact they have not physically seen the components involved and they have also spotted marks on the crank itself which could be an indication of play in the thrust bearing washers. This may be a result of the deterioration in the state of the crank cradle section with the cracks etc., but this can't be said for certain.

The good news is that as they haven't had to perform a site visit and physical inspection, the costs will be lower than their normal £140.

2. The metallurgy specialists have confirmed that the crank cradle shows evidence of porosity in one particular photo (which I have attached to this e-mail) denoted by the small holes in the surface of the alloy. Their initial e-mail states: -

"We have viewed the information supplied and agree that there is evidence of grinding. There also appears to be some porosity at the edge of photo DSC01538.

I think you have sufficient evidence to forward to the Manufacturer."

I'm not concerned if they can't link the defects to the misfire as I concluded a while ago that we'll not find out what caused it (maybe the metal flake that was found in the sump, moving between the tappets) and the fact my stance is that the defects in the crank cradle are the result of poor casting and it shouldn't have been installed in the engine in the first place. I don't think there'll be a charge from Scientifics as they recommend any further in-depth analysis would be more in the realm of specific Auto Engine analytical companies.

3. The old engine is on its way to Porsche GB Reading. I spoke to the Customer Assistance contact who has been handling my case and informed him of the comment about the porosity from the metallurgy company and that he will be getting a formal statment from them and the RAC report in a couple of days or so. He said that once they've received those they can confirm their next actions and any further investigative work would be done back at Porsche AG when they have received the old engine from Reading.

Given the above, I would be more than happy to post the results of the reports etc., FOC as they can only go so far given the evidence they've been presented with and that deeper level analysis would now be in Porsche's domain. I would not take donations for that reason but this doesn't diminish the value of your offers to me.

Scouser, on your comment about PCGB ownership, do you know if anyone from Porsche GB/AG monitors the posts and contents? Just makes me think that we may need to be careful about how much we reveal about our concerns and tactics. How did the op go BTW?

Best regards

John

Edited January 26, 2007 by Johnnyceesred

[Scouser]

Scouser, on your comment about PCGB ownership, do you know if anyone from Porsche GB/AG monitors the posts and contents? Just makes me think that we may need to be careful about how much we reveal about our concerns and tactics. How did the op go BTW?

John, I am no expert nor do I have any inkling on this. Everything I say here is purely speculative.

I doubt very much if PorscheGB or PosrcheAG monitor the PCGB forums. However, on certain hot topics they may well do.

I know they were watching mine because I was told that by customer services from one of the girls in there that I knew (sh'e gone to another dept now).

Before Porsche bought into PCGB, the club was trying to help me. But as soon as they came on board everything changed

and I got no help. One thing is for certain though, the PCGB forums are open in the sense that they are only moderated

by people like you and I and not by Porsche themselves. But you probably should be a little "weary" about what you say

on the PCGB forum ;)

If you go the legal route and end up sueing PorscheGB, which I hope you "dont" have to do but have a great wish that you would ;)

you should be suing the CEO/President of PorscheGB not PorscheGB themselves. If you do that, he will make things happen.

Ultimately he is the person responsible and represents Porsche in the UK.

Also, just in case you didn't know. PorscheGB unlike Porsche US or PAM are wholly owned by Porsche AG. That is Porsche GB is

a subsiduary of Porsche AG. So dealing with Porsche GB is dealing with Porsche AG if you know what I mean.

Did I ever send you details of the worldwide service manager in Stuttgart to contact?

My op went well. I am fully mended now...just have to take it easy for a few weeks.

Cheers mate,

Berny

[Johnnyceesred]

Scouser, on your comment about PCGB ownership, do you know if anyone from Porsche GB/AG monitors the posts and contents? Just makes me think that we may need to be careful about how much we reveal about our concerns and tactics. How did the op go BTW?

John, I am no expert nor do I have any inkling on this. Everything I say here is purely speculative.

I doubt very much if PorscheGB or PosrcheAG monitor the PCGB forums. However, on certain hot topics they may well do.

I know they were watching mine because I was told that by customer services from one of the girls in there that I knew (sh'e gone to another dept now).

Before Porsche bought into PCGB, the club was trying to help me. But as soon as they came on board everything changed

and I got no help. One thing is for certain though, the PCGB forums are open in the sense that they are only moderated

by people like you and I and not by Porsche themselves. But you probably should be a little "weary" about what you say

on the PCGB forum ;)

If you go the legal route and end up sueing PorscheGB, which I hope you "dont" have to do but have a great wish that you would ;)

you should be suing the CEO/President of PorscheGB not PorscheGB themselves. If you do that, he will make things happen.

Ultimately he is the person responsible and represents Porsche in the UK.

Also, just in case you didn't know. PorscheGB unlike Porsche US or PAM are wholly owned by Porsche AG. That is Porsche GB is

a subsiduary of Porsche AG. So dealing with Porsche GB is dealing with Porsche AG if you know what I mean.

Did I ever send you details of the worldwide service manager in Stuttgart to contact?

My op went well. I am fully mended now...just have to take it easy for a few weeks.

Cheers mate,

Berny

Hi Berny,

I received the comments back from the metallurgy company this morning and they are very supportive of my assertions about the part in question and in their words "From the evidence presented, our conclusion is that the crank cradle part in question is not of a satisfactory quality suitable for the purpose it was designed to perform. This part should not have been installed into the engine and subsequently the vehicle."

The RAC have promised to complete their report over the weekend and I've asked them to include the metallurgy company's comments in that so all is in an official format.

Best regards

John

Edited January 26, 2007 by Johnnyceesred

[Johnnyceesred]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

[PeterK]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

That is a cool looking engine! Was there an option of getting a 3.8l instead?

[norton-sp]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

porsche and my dealer said no need for running in, nor was there a need for an oil change before 20000km. i wonder which is right. i personally dont see the need for running in...on the contrary. i have read evidence that carefull running in can actually do the engine harm and reduce the engines performance. high load and low revs should be avoided, which i try not to do anyway ...but this was the only extra precaution i took with my new engine for the first few hundred km.

i have had many brand new very high performance motorcycles and a few cars. i have NEVER run them in. the only engine problem i ever had before the porsche was with my ducati, both were used when i bought them!..thats food for thought

kelvin

Edited February 1, 2007 by norton-sp

[cyclocross]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

While your new motor is certainly nice to look at, what is that motor behind it!? It looks to be a turbocharged 6 cylinder with the horizontal fan. 935, 936, or 965/962?

Stop the presses... Upon closer inspection is that a motor from a 917/10 or 917/30? It is hard to tell from the angle but it looks to be a flat 12.

Edited February 2, 2007 by cyclocross

[Johnnyceesred]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

While your new motor is certainly nice to look at, what is that motor behind it!? It looks to be a turbocharged 6 cylinder with the horizontal fan. 935, 936, or 965/962?

Stop the presses... Upon closer inspection is that a motor from a 917/10 or 917/30? It is hard to tell from the angle but it looks to be a flat 12.

Dan,

Good spot. Dave is currently doing a total restoration on a 917 (can't tell you whose). He has along association with 917s in racing, engine preparation, restorations etc. Take a look at the web site http://www.davegriffithsracing.co.uk/ and you'find some 917 parts for sale. The web site will be updated soon.

I see you're planning a trip to Germany. If you're planning to be in England as well do let me know, maybe we could meet up.

Rgds

John

[Johnnyceesred]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

That is a cool looking engine! Was there an option of getting a 3.8l instead?

Hi Peter,

Don't know, didn't ask. I assumed that the fittings would be different between the 996 engines and the 997 and to be honest I wanted to keep matters as simple as possible anyway.

Rgds

John

[Johnnyceesred]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

porsche and my dealer said no need for running in, nor was there a need for an oil change before 20000km. i wonder which is right. i personally dont see the need for running in...on the contrary. i have read evidence that carefull running in can actually do the engine harm and reduce the engines performance. high load and low revs should be avoided, which i try not to do anyway ...but this was the only extra precaution i took with my new engine for the first few hundred km.

i have had many brand new very high performance motorcycles and a few cars. i have NEVER run them in. the only engine problem i ever had before the porsche was with my ducati, both were used when i bought them!..thats food for thought

kelvin

Hi Kelvin,

I just e-mailed the RAC report and the metallurgy specialists comments to Porsche GB. Waiting for a 'phone call back to confirm receipt and to agree next actions on their part.

Will keep you updated.

Rgds

John

[Lee Quave]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

Check out this link to my post on Rennlist for additional opinions on engine break-in. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=324510

You can also check out this link for an interesting view on the subject http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Lee

[Johnnyceesred]

Nearly there!!!

Went to see new engine today. Hoping to be back on the road end of this week/early part of next week. Getting clued up on running in disciplines.

Porsche factory says no running in required. OPC says keep to 3,500-4,500 RPM tops for 1,000-2,000 miles. Oil change after 1,000 miles. I noticed a variance in the feedback from Lee's post re new engine. When you've paid for it out of your own pocket (so far), it gives you a different perpsective I guess.

Just waiting for official RAC report and then will forward to Porsche GB.

Rgds

John

Check out this link to my post on Rennlist for additional opinions on engine break-in. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=324510

You can also check out this link for an interesting view on the subject http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Lee

Thanks Lee,

Very interesting links.

Rgds

John