Had PPI Done Today -Opinions?

[RandalJ]

Hi - going from a 1986 Targa to a 1999 coupe. I'm seriously considering one from out-of-town with about 35k miles for $36k, and the PPI today lists several things:

Original engine, but transmission was replaced at about 18k, reasons unknown (per Carfax).

RMS OK now, but was replaced at 12k miles (found on dealer maintenance network).

449 hits of "range two counter". My understanding is that this is how many times it's gone over redline. More than the tech has ever seen on one of these, but not necessarily bad. Should I worry?

Rear brakes need pads and rotors. Brake flush needed. Fronts good.

Both variocam seals leaking. Does anyone have a picture of where these are on the engine?

No compression or leakdown performed (shop said not needed unless anything came up on the diagnostic check or any unusual engine noises were evident).

Otherwise excellent shape. Engine, tranny, clutch all good, but evidence it was tracked (ties on the tranny cables, the redline counts - doesn't bother me necessarily).

Carfax looked OK.

Car is 1700 miles from me at a Porsche dealer, and PPI was done at a highly regarded independent shop. I believe the dealer will make these items right at no charge.

I anything I MUST look at before I commit? This car is the color combo and the S030 I've been looking for.

Thanks in advance.

[ADias]

449 hits of "range two counter". My understanding is that this is how many times it's gone over redline. More than the tech has ever seen on one of these, but not necessarily bad. Should I worry?

Aren't range two counter the bad overrevs? a 6th to a 5th downshift that entered a 3rd instead, and ran the engine above the redline. Those are bad. I would not buy such a car.

[RandalJ]

On the 449 hits, I'm inclined to think that means 449 ignitions, not 449 separate mechanical over-rev events or miss-downshifts. Anyone know for sure? I'll call a few shops too to confirm.

If that is the case, then this number COULD represent just one mechanical over-rev event. Figure one revolution has 3 ignitions, so 449/3 = about 150 revolutions. If the RPMs at the time were, say 8000, the duration of the overrev would have been 150/8000 minutes, or about 1.13 seconds. It would have to have been shorter lengths of time if it happened on two or more occasions.

That seems more likely than 449 actual miss-downshifts. I don't think the engine could take twenty of those.

Though certainly just one event could be enough to break the engine, I am reassured by the fact that the engine has gone for 700 hours since the last (and maybe only) incident (out of 1000+ hours total). I'm inclined to think no harm done.

The shop was looking for timing chain noises as an indicator of bigger problems, but they said it was quiet. And the engine was strong with no unusual sounds.

Thanks

[ADias]

The designation "range two counter" is what bugs me. Maybe Loren can pitch in.

[Loren]

Stage 2 overrevs are potentially engine damaging.

Stage 1 overrevs are ones that the DME caught and didn't allow the engine to continue.

Stage 2 overrevs are uncontrolled and are usually caused by missed down shifts where the engine is forced to run faster than it can or spinning the car and not putting the clutch in where the engine can actually run backwards.

I personally would stay away from a car with stage 2 overrevs - unless they want to offer you a 3 year unconditional engine warranty ;)

[RandalJ]

Understand the general meaning of range 2. The 449 sounds huge, but what does this really represent? In order of best case scenario to worst case, it could be:

1. The number of ignition events, which could simply mean 1 misshift, sending the revs too high for about a second - or two misshifts for an average of half a second each, etc. That might be OK, especially if the engine has gone on strong for another 700 hours.

2 The number of revs under which the overreving occurred. Equates to a longer total time.

3. Most unlikely, the number of mechnical over-revving incidents. I said before that the engine would probably not survive 20.

4. Something else?

Thanks.

[Topless]

Sounds like she has been rode hard and put away wet. Is this really the car you want to own? :(

[RandalJ]

Well, we're no closer to what the numbers actually mean, but I will try to find out definitively tomorrow.

[alpha]

I know that once you've found the car that fits all of the criteria -- right color, options/equipment -- plus, you've spent the money on a PPI, it's compelling to make it work for you. I think if you can live with a prior tracking history and some type 2 overevs, get the brake work and variocam stuff done by the dealer before the sale (at their cost), and are OK with no current RMS leak and the transmission is currently OK; then agree on a good price for you and you could be happy with it. Buying long distance based on a PPI is a tough call (although I did it too).

There are many 996 coupes out there to choose from, but maybe not with that low of miles and the options you are looking for. If you can find one you like without those issues or stories, it might be a better car in the long term. Good luck with your car search & purchase.

[RandalJ]

OK - here's what I've confirmed through a couple of dealers - the range two number denotes the number of missed ignition/spark events. NOT incidents of missed shifts. They said 200 or so is quite common in cars they have through for routine maintenance, but some have none.

449 represents about 150 crankshaft revolutions, or just over one second duration at 8000 avg RPM (figuring starting at 9k, going down to 7k).

I can see an engine surviving a singe case or maybe a few cases of shorter duration, hence the PPI tech's opinion that the engine was fine.

Still, my concern would then become whether after market warranty companies would see this, and blame it for ANYTHING that might go wrong with the engine, and not cover any engine work or replacement. Crap.

[eastriver]

does this car has something u really want?

the price is not that good, condition is not that good, history is not that good. and it's a long distance. i would pass.

there are so many 996s out there.

Edited October 3, 2006 by eastriver

[RandalJ]

Yeah it does, coupe with S030 suspension and limited slip, and the right color combo.