M030: A Comprehensive Write-Up

[insite]

Not sure which is considered the "upper control arm". I assume that the UCA is the control arm that controls the toe, I unbolted and split the ball joint from the hub side and didn't touch the chassis side of that arm. The diagonal arm, I disconnected from the LCA and didn't disturb the chassis side.

i'm still confused by what to call it myself. the toe control arms are called 'toe steer control arms'. the 'lower control arm' is the one with the ball joint. the upper control arm, AKA trailing arm (it's really neither 'upper' or 'trailing') connects the lower control arm to the chassis. it sounds like you didn't mess with the chassis side of either one. you should be fine.

[atmorris]

Not sure which is considered the "upper control arm". I assume that the UCA is the control arm that controls the toe, I unbolted and split the ball joint from the hub side and didn't touch the chassis side of that arm. The diagonal arm, I disconnected from the LCA and didn't disturb the chassis side.

i'm still confused by what to call it myself. the toe control arms are called 'toe steer control arms'. the 'lower control arm' is the one with the ball joint. the upper control arm, AKA trailing arm (it's really neither 'upper' or 'trailing') connects the lower control arm to the chassis. it sounds like you didn't mess with the chassis side of either one. you should be fine.

Seems like no one else is too sure what to call them either. The parts diagrams I have refer to both as simply control arms. My shop manual calls them the "lower control arm" and the "diagonal arm".

Edited April 19, 2007 by Andy_M

[insite]

Seems like no one else is too sure what to call them either. The parts diagrams I have refer to both as simply control arms. My shop manual calls them the "lower control arm" and the "diagonal arm".

i've heard control arm, upper control arm, diagonal, trailing link and track arm. to me, there is no upper control arm on a car with mcpherson struts. a trailing arm should TRAIL. diagonal or track arm is probably best i think. btw, how do you like the 030 so far?

[atmorris]

Seems like no one else is too sure what to call them either. The parts diagrams I have refer to both as simply control arms. My shop manual calls them the "lower control arm" and the "diagonal arm".

i've heard control arm, upper control arm, diagonal, trailing link and track arm. to me, there is no upper control arm on a car with mcpherson struts. a trailing arm should TRAIL. diagonal or track arm is probably best i think. btw, how do you like the 030 so far?

Have not had time to finish it up yet so I can take a test drive. Wife keeps scheduling crap and I can't get it done. I should finish it up tonight. Fronts are done. Swaybars are done. Pass side rear is in and just needs to be buttoned up. Driver side rear is all loose just have to mark and remove the lower control arm. Maybe 1 or 2 hours work left. Can't get it aligned until early next week. Unless it's really driving badly though, I'll probably get it out for a test drive this weekend sometime.

Also, I meant to ask you - I recall something posted here one time about someone tightening down everything with the suspension fully unloaded and then having the back end sitting way too high until they loosened and retightened everything. Do you normally need to jack up the hub a bit before tightening the lower control arms to prevent this if the car is up on jackstands ?

Andy

Edited April 20, 2007 by Andy_M

[atmorris]

OK, I took it out for a test drive this weekend. The right rear was visably high on toe in after reassembly, while the left remained unchanged. Not sure if the right was that bad before I disassembled, or if something in my reassembly sequence changed it. Anyway, I saw that it was obviously out of wack, so I adjusted it as best I could before I took the car off the stands.

Apparently I didn't do too bad a job with the toe adjustment as it tracks pretty well. I have an appointment to get it aligned this afternoon at Powertech. None of the local alignment shops would set it up to anything but factory specs, if they would even do a Porsche at all. Luckily, I only live about 1/2 hour away from Powertech, so they get the nod.

My Initial impressions after a couple of test rides this weekend are that the ROW M030 under everyday driving conditions has a slightly stiffer ride, hardly noticable though really (My wife can't tell the difference). However, it's when you start "playing" that it really shows its stuff. I don't even have the alignment done yet ,and I can already see that it is an impressive difference. The car remains noticably flatter, something that is impressive given the ability of this car to corner pretty darn flat to start with. Turn in is sharper as well. Since the alignment has not been done, I have not REALLY pushed it to see what it can do yet, but I have played enough to know it is going to be impressive - to say the least.

While I did not take before and after measurements, my car appears to be noticably lower - especially the front as expected, but the back appears to be visibly lower as well. It may be an optical illusion, but the back appears to me to have dropped close to an inch, and the front maybe 1 1/2". I really like the look.

Edited April 23, 2007 by Andy_M

[insite]

While I did not take before and after measurements, my car appears to be noticably lower - especially the front as expected, but the back appears to be visibly lower as well. It may be an optical illusion, but the back appears to me to have dropped close to an inch, and the front maybe 1 1/2". I really like the look.

glad you're enjoying it. my impressions are similar. i also think that the RoW lowers the car a bit more than advertised. they say it's 2cm up front and 1cm in back; i think it's closer to 3cm / 2cm. what will you be aligning to? i ran -1.6 up front for awhile on the street; it's showing slightly uneven wear (wearing the insides). i think -1.0 might be better for the street in terms of tire life. i notched my strut towers so i can quicly set it to -1.0 for street and -1.6 for the track.

[atmorris]

While I did not take before and after measurements, my car appears to be noticably lower - especially the front as expected, but the back appears to be visibly lower as well. It may be an optical illusion, but the back appears to me to have dropped close to an inch, and the front maybe 1 1/2". I really like the look.

glad you're enjoying it. my impressions are similar. i also think that the RoW lowers the car a bit more than advertised. they say it's 2cm up front and 1cm in back; i think it's closer to 3cm / 2cm. what will you be aligning to? i ran -1.6 up front for awhile on the street; it's showing slightly uneven wear (wearing the insides). i think -1.0 might be better for the street in terms of tire life. i notched my strut towers so i can quicly set it to -1.0 for street and -1.6 for the track.

Well, after talking with Mike at Powertech, we kind of arrived at a set of settings very close to your suggestions. These settings are based on street tires being used even if I do an AX or DE or two. We set it up to:

Fronts: -1.2 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

Rears: -2.0 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

Pressures: 30 psi.

We added the front toe to minimize railroad tracking and because Mike was very convicted in his belief that the tires require a minimal amount of preload. Mike has been racing since he was a kid, so I put faith in his experience.

Driving around last night, it became quickly apparent that I wasn't going to be dissapointed. It turns in crisper, and stays absolutely flat. Transition in switchbacks or "S" bends is so minor that it is virtually non-existant from the driver seat. There were a couple of times (with clear road and no one around..) that my eyes got beady and the adrenaline was pumping, because I was absolutely convinced I was entering a turn too hot, and the car didn't even sneeze....most impressive drive I have ever taken....yet totally inside the envelope. I can't wait to get this on a track. The only "down side" to this suspension change is that you have to learn the limits all over again.... :drive:

For others out there considering which improvements get you the most bang for the buck, I can honestly say that, other than DE's and improving the driver, the ROW M030 is hands down the best money I have spent to date. I would put it at #1 on my list of "to do" mods.

Edited April 24, 2007 by Andy_M

[insite]

Well, after talking with Mike at Powertech, we kind of arrived at a set of settings very close to your suggestions. These settings are based on street tires being used even if I do an AX or DE or two. We set it up to:

Fronts: -1.2 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

Rears: -2.0 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

We added the front toe to minimize railroad tracking and because Mike was very convicted in his belief that the tires require a minimal amount of preload. Mike has been racing since he was a kid, so I put faith in his experience.

Driving around last night, it became quickly apparent that I wasn't going to be dissapointed. There were a couple of times (with clear road and no one around..) that my eyes got beady and the adrenaline was pumping, because I was absolutely convinced I was entering a turn too hot, and the car didn't even sneeze....most impressive drive I have ever taken....yet totally inside the envelope. I can't wait to get this on a track. The only down side to this suspension change is that you have to learn the limits all over again.... :drive:

sounds like you have it dialed in! pretty serious difference, eh? i think that's how they should have built the car to begin with. what are your tire pressures?

[atmorris]

Well, after talking with Mike at Powertech, we kind of arrived at a set of settings very close to your suggestions. These settings are based on street tires being used even if I do an AX or DE or two. We set it up to:

Fronts: -1.2 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

Rears: -2.0 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

We added the front toe to minimize railroad tracking and because Mike was very convicted in his belief that the tires require a minimal amount of preload. Mike has been racing since he was a kid, so I put faith in his experience.

Driving around last night, it became quickly apparent that I wasn't going to be dissapointed. There were a couple of times (with clear road and no one around..) that my eyes got beady and the adrenaline was pumping, because I was absolutely convinced I was entering a turn too hot, and the car didn't even sneeze....most impressive drive I have ever taken....yet totally inside the envelope. I can't wait to get this on a track. The only down side to this suspension change is that you have to learn the limits all over again.... :drive:

sounds like you have it dialed in! pretty serious difference, eh? i think that's how they should have built the car to begin with. what are your tire pressures?

I'd have to agree. It makes the stock US suspension seem "sloppy" if you can believe that (but of course you know what I'm saying...). Right now pressures are at 30 all the way around. Pirelli P Zero's - stock sizes - on M411 18" Lt Alloy Carrera Wheels.

[insite]

Well, after talking with Mike at Powertech, we kind of arrived at a set of settings very close to your suggestions. These settings are based on street tires being used even if I do an AX or DE or two. We set it up to:

Fronts: -1.2 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

Rears: -2.0 deg camber; 1/32" total toe

We added the front toe to minimize railroad tracking and because Mike was very convicted in his belief that the tires require a minimal amount of preload. Mike has been racing since he was a kid, so I put faith in his experience.

Driving around last night, it became quickly apparent that I wasn't going to be dissapointed. There were a couple of times (with clear road and no one around..) that my eyes got beady and the adrenaline was pumping, because I was absolutely convinced I was entering a turn too hot, and the car didn't even sneeze....most impressive drive I have ever taken....yet totally inside the envelope. I can't wait to get this on a track. The only down side to this suspension change is that you have to learn the limits all over again.... :drive:

sounds like you have it dialed in! pretty serious difference, eh? i think that's how they should have built the car to begin with. what are your tire pressures?

I'd have to agree. It makes the stock US suspension seem "sloppy" if you can believe that (but of course you know what I'm saying...). Right now pressures are at 30 all the way around. Pirelli P Zero's - stock sizes - on M411 18" Lt Alloy Carrera Wheels.

sounds reasonable. i usually ran 30/32 or 32/34. i made some changes to my setup a couple of weeks ago, so now i have to run 34/32 to dial out some understeer. the M030 is a lot more reactive to tire pressure changes.

[atmorris]

Once I relearn the limits, I'll try the 2# offset and see how it feels. I'm definately ready for some DE fun now. I think I missed LimeRock, but I'll be ready for the Glenn later this year. :thumbup:

[LuisR]

Insite,

What device are you using to measure camber?? Can you let me know where did you get it from? thanks,

Also, is it hard to change the toe on the front by yourself???

[insite]

Insite,

What device are you using to measure camber?? Can you let me know where did you get it from? thanks,

Also, is it hard to change the toe on the front by yourself???

it's a friend's guage. you can get them from smart racing products. you can also make one with a level from home depot, but it's kind of a pain. as for toe, i do have toe plates that i use from time to time, but my alignment guy only charges me $60 for a four-wheel, so i mostly just take it to him. changing the toe up front is easy. measuring it in accurate relationship to everything else is tougher.

BTW, everyone says that changing the camber on these cars also changes the toe, and it does. i've found, though, that the front toe is particularly insensitive to camber changes, so i can change my front camber a lot without changing front toe much. for me, i have it set up so that when i set the camber to my track setting, front toe goes to zero. when i set it to street, toe goes in slightly, which is desirable for street driving.

[atmorris]

OK...its been a whole week now. I L-O-V-E this suspension.

I may need to move someplace that has lots of super curve laden roads now. :D

It's insane how much more speed I can carry through a tight corner now and the car still doesn't even feel remotely close to the edge. It's obvious that I'm going to have to get it on a track to get any idea of it's full potential, and then I think it's going to scare me a little at first.

Life is good. :notworthy:

[LuisR]

Insite,

What device are you using to measure camber?? Can you let me know where did you get it from? thanks,

Also, is it hard to change the toe on the front by yourself???

it's a friend's guage. you can get them from smart racing products. you can also make one with a level from home depot, but it's kind of a pain. as for toe, i do have toe plates that i use from time to time, but my alignment guy only charges me $60 for a four-wheel, so i mostly just take it to him. changing the toe up front is easy. measuring it in accurate relationship to everything else is tougher.

BTW, everyone says that changing the camber on these cars also changes the toe, and it does. i've found, though, that the front toe is particularly insensitive to camber changes, so i can change my front camber a lot without changing front toe much. for me, i have it set up so that when i set the camber to my track setting, front toe goes to zero. when i set it to street, toe goes in slightly, which is desirable for street driving.

Thanks,

So if I change the car setup to max neg camber (three bolts all the way in) what toe value would I have??? I just want to know if I would be ok by just changing the camber to max neg for autocross and then when I get back home I switch it back to street setup.

[insite]

So if I change the car setup to max neg camber (three bolts all the way in) what toe value would I have??? I just want to know if I would be ok by just changing the camber to max neg for autocross and then when I get back home I switch it back to street setup.

it would depend on your toe value before you moved the camber. if you have a toe setting that's within spec, max neg camber up front will decrease your front toe-in. this is generally desirable for auto-x. it MAY even push you to toe out up front, which many people also consider desirable for auto-x. just try it and go for a drive to see how it feels. you'll know immediately if you've gone too far.

[insite]

OK...its been a whole week now. I L-O-V-E this suspension.

I may need to move someplace that has lots of super curve laden roads now. :D

It's insane how much more speed I can carry through a tight corner now and the car still doesn't even feel remotely close to the edge. It's obvious that I'm going to have to get it on a track to get any idea of it's full potential, and then I think it's going to scare me a little at first.

awesome, isn't it? the compromise in ride quality is almost unnoticable. i really think it should have come standard like this.

[demonz]

Some people have all the fun! I'm already scraping some driveways and bump stops as it is 02 S, so I'm outta luck :(

[insite]

Some people have all the fun! I'm already scraping some driveways and bump stops as it is 02 S, so I'm outta luck :(

you'll still get a lot of benefit just from doing the sways. optionally, you can do the complete U.W. M030; it doesn't change the ride height.

[atmorris]

OK...its been a whole week now. I L-O-V-E this suspension.

I may need to move someplace that has lots of super curve laden roads now. :D

It's insane how much more speed I can carry through a tight corner now and the car still doesn't even feel remotely close to the edge. It's obvious that I'm going to have to get it on a track to get any idea of it's full potential, and then I think it's going to scare me a little at first.

awesome, isn't it? the compromise in ride quality is almost unnoticable. i really think it should have come standard like this.

I'd have to agree insight. Considering that the cost difference to Porsche would have been negligible at build, not sure why they wouldn't have done this. The car performs at a whole different level configured this way. I never would have thought that it would change the envelope this much......whole different level.

P.S....just read about the ernie bar. Very impressive. Just sent an email to stan..... :P

Edited May 7, 2007 by Andy_M

[loosecannon]

Some people have all the fun! I'm already scraping some driveways and bump stops as it is 02 S, so I'm outta luck :(

you'll still get a lot of benefit just from doing the sways. optionally, you can do the complete U.W. M030; it doesn't change the ride height.

I'm reviving this thread because there are some very knowledgeable people (Insite in particular) on here and that's what I need right now. I have a 2004 base Boxster w/o M030 and I auto-x with the SCCA in A Stock. I am fairly competitive with the A Stock leaders in their S2000's but need another .5 to .8 seconds to beat them. Obviously, in AS I am not allowed to install the RoW M030 because it bumps me out of Stock class. What parts and part #s do I need to install the US M030? I am allowed to change front sway bar to anything but must keep the rear sway bar and springs US M030 or non-M030 (no mixing and matching between the different suspension packages allowed). I can change shocks, too as long as ride height does not change. I have read about the amazing differences between the non-M030 and RoW M030 on a 986S but how much of a difference between the non-M030 and US M030 on a base Boxster? I can only get -.7 camber on the front, I assume that will not change or is there some Stock legal way to get more? I want to run with the S2000's at the SCCA Nats this year and am looking for help.

[macsak]

Some people have all the fun! I'm already scraping some driveways and bump stops as it is 02 S, so I'm outta luck :(

you'll still get a lot of benefit just from doing the sways. optionally, you can do the complete U.W. M030; it doesn't change the ride height.

I'm reviving this thread because there are some very knowledgeable people (Insite in particular) on here and that's what I need right now. I have a 2004 base Boxster w/o M030 and I auto-x with the SCCA in A Stock. I am fairly competitive with the A Stock leaders in their S2000's but need another .5 to .8 seconds to beat them. Obviously, in AS I am not allowed to install the RoW M030 because it bumps me out of Stock class. What parts and part #s do I need to install the US M030? I am allowed to change front sway bar to anything but must keep the rear sway bar and springs US M030 or non-M030 (no mixing and matching between the different suspension packages allowed). I can change shocks, too as long as ride height does not change. I have read about the amazing differences between the non-M030 and RoW M030 on a 986S but how much of a difference between the non-M030 and US M030 on a base Boxster? I can only get -.7 camber on the front, I assume that will not change or is there some Stock legal way to get more? I want to run with the S2000's at the SCCA Nats this year and am looking for help.

somebody will be along soon with some advice, but a starting place would be to read these sites

http://www.boxcar-racing.com/forum/

http://www.boxsterspecracing.org/forums/

http://www.boxsterspec.com/

aloha

steve

[loosecannon]

So, I contacted Suncoast and the RoW M030 kit is $999.00 but to put together a US M030 is almost $1800.00-what gives? Anyways, is anybody going to answer my questions from two posts ago?

[macsak]

you may have to search the archives for the answer you seek

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?a...ighlite=%2Bm030

did you try the other boards i mentioned?

aloha

steve

So, I contacted Suncoast and the RoW M030 kit is $999.00 but to put together a US M030 is almost $1800.00-what gives? Anyways, is anybody going to answer my questions from two posts ago?

[loosecannon]

you may have to search the archives for the answer you seek

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?a...ighlite=%2Bm030

did you try the other boards i mentioned?

aloha

steve

So, I contacted Suncoast and the RoW M030 kit is $999.00 but to put together a US M030 is almost $1800.00-what gives? Anyways, is anybody going to answer my questions from two posts ago?

Yes, I'm a member of the Boxster racing forum. I get a lot of sort-of answers with a search but little specific info. Suncoast sent me an e-mail today that they will give me a discount but haven't said how much yet. I'm hoping it will be under $1300.00 for the whole kit. If the US M030 for the base Boxster is worth more than half a second on a 60 second nationals style course, it will be worth it for me. I would like to find some people who have autocrossed with the base suspension and the US M030 but so far can only find people who have tried the RoW M030. The problem is that the RoW drops the car which really helps the camber.