Sway Bars

[Izzy]

Have a performance question. During a track event last weekend, met some Porsche tuners (working on the race class Porsches). During a conversation, I asked about handling performance. One of the techs metioned that to change the front sway bar from stock to upgraded would make a great difference in my 1999 996 cabrio, and that it was an easy thing to do.

I searched and found Eibach makes a decent looking kit, 24 mm front and 19 rear. Has anyone done this themselves, and is it worth doing? I do track the car every chance I get. Thank you

Izzy

[9nine6]

Have a performance question. During a track event last weekend, met some Porsche tuners (working on the race class Porsches). During a conversation, I asked about handling performance. One of the techs metioned that to change the front sway bar from stock to upgraded would make a great difference in my 1999 996 cabrio, and that it was an easy thing to do.

I searched and found Eibach makes a decent looking kit, 24 mm front and 19 rear. Has anyone done this themselves, and is it worth doing? I do track the car every chance I get. Thank you

Izzy

I did a DIY install on GT3 front and rear sways on my 01 Cab, straight forward, no special tools, took about 1.5 hr. When I did the sways I had PSS9 springs/shocks. You can so the springs and shocks without the sways , but I'm not sure you want to do the sways w/o the springs. I'd do some further research.. The whole package is fantastic...

Roy S.

[lrapoport]

Have a performance question. During a track event last weekend, met some Porsche tuners (working on the race class Porsches). During a conversation, I asked about handling performance. One of the techs metioned that to change the front sway bar from stock to upgraded would make a great difference in my 1999 996 cabrio, and that it was an easy thing to do.

I searched and found Eibach makes a decent looking kit, 24 mm front and 19 rear. Has anyone done this themselves, and is it worth doing? I do track the car every chance I get. Thank you

Izzy

I installed an entire ROW M030 suspension in my car. I would believe doing just the sway bars could be done in under an hour with a pair of Rhino Ramps.

A stock 996 understeers/pushes from the factory. Adding a larger front bar will only make this worse, so I am not sure of the credibility of the advice from this Porsche tuner. To go more neutral you add a thicker rear bar. Before you change anything, what are you trying to accomplish? How do you, not someone else, want the car to handle? Some people like a pushing car that is safe in case they get into trouble. Others like a car that is more neutral that they can easily change the balance mid-corner. Others like a car that is loose and is controlled by more of the right foot than the steering wheel.

I am also curious as to why you are looking at Eibach sway bars? The best sway bars to use are GT3 (with modified or aftermarket end links) or H&R's.

[Ubermensch]

The best sway bars to use are GT3 (with modified or aftermarket end links) or H&R's.

What is your comment based on?

[lrapoport]

The best sway bars to use are GT3 (with modified or aftermarket end links) or H&R's.

What is your comment based on?

The Eibach sway bars for the 996 are non-adjustable.

The GT3's are 5-way adjustalbe front and 4-way adjustable rear. The H&R front in non-adjustable, but the rear is adjustable. Sorry, but I forgot TRG. They should be at the top of the list too.

[Izzy]

I read the description of Eibach as "rear adjustable", Drivewire I think. Memory serves me right, same size as H&R. And they are red, pretty color (just kidding, I really wanted to know more about sway bars anyway)

On the understeers, I was thinking more the 996 oversteers, pendulum effect with pivot point in the front but weight bias on the rear? Just borrowing from Vic Elford's book on 911 performance driving, and my multiple experiences spinning like a top on-track and scaring the DE instructors. I learned to drive while watching the "Dukes of Hazard".

Let me know if I understood it wrong, as I was thinking about less oversteer in turn 14 of CMP, which is a tricky one for me.

[lrapoport]

Izzy,

I can absolutely say that with 285 factory rear rubber and the soft stock suspenion, that these cars DO NOT oversteer. I can't even get it to spin the tires from a dead stop. I also have a 79' 911 S/C and the difference is day and night. That car gets very nervous and does have the pendulum effect. I know what happens when you lift off in a corner in an old 911 and it is not pretty. A 996 is nothing like the older cars.

Before I swapped suspensions in the 996, I could lift off pushing hard in a corner in the wet and my 996 would still push. Keep in mind that my car doesn't have PSM. I am sure it would be even more pronounced in a C4S or with PSM. That is just the nature of these cars. They truely have completely tamed these cars and in fact too much for my liking. Had I done the same manuever in my S/C and I would have been spinning in circles. On the older cars, I could see swapping the front bar to tame them. Be careful when you take advice from books in making sure it applies to your series car. What applies to an old 911 does not apply to a new one.

My S/C is a factory sports suspension car with original thicker torsion bars, Konis, front and rear sway bars. It is a handful in a autocross and requires only throttle in turns. I run 245 instead of 225 tires in the rear of my S/C just to tame some of its tail waging tendencies. I considered swapping to a larger front bar on that car, but the extra tire fixed it. I swapped to a ROW M030 on my 996 to improve the balance the opposite direction, so the balance has shifted from understeer to very neutral on a skidpad. Nevertheless, I still notice a good amount of push when I run track events.

Although Drivewire indicates that the Eibach rear is adjustable, check Eibach's catalog and they show it is not.

Edited July 27, 2006 by 02 Carrera

[Izzy]

Thanks for the info and education. I am going to hold off the bars. I do have 265's on the rear, not 285's. And 225's in the front. That is what the car had when I bought it (not new). It had not occured to me to use larger tires. I have 18 in wheels, "Turbo look". I haven't been doing this for long, do you need to get larger wheels for the larger tires? I would like to look further into that, getting wider rubber.

Also, was thinking of lowering the car with a new coil over setup. So you did the ROW, thoughts about the PSS9? Eibach Pro-kit? Just looking for opinions of experience.

I need to focus on the P0740 (Tiptronic issue) before track day Friday. Looks like I may be low on the fluid. But when I get back this weekend was thinking about tinkering in the garage. Your thoughts appreciated

Izzy

[cyclocross]

Thanks for the info and education. I am going to hold off the bars. ...

Hi, all. I have a question for the group concerning another approach to eliminating understeer. The July 2006 issue of Total 911 has an article on trackdays. In this article a driving instructor, Jon Oakley, states that Carreras leave the factory with the front wheels set to toe-out to induce understeer. Oakley resets the wheels to be dead parallel. This gives the Carrera "... better turn-in and better front-end grip, which results in much less understeer allowing for faster cornering". Have any of you folks tried this? Thanks.

[lrapoport]

Izzy,

If you are looking for more adjustment to corner weight the car and adjust dampening, then PSS9's are a good choice. It just depends how serious you are in track times. They are considerably more expensive $2K + sway bars. Same goes for the X74 suspension, except it includes the M030 sway bars. Eibach Pro-kit is just springs. If get these, you won't have your springs matched to your shocks and you will still need sway bars to change the balance. Eibach springs along with shocks and sway bars will actually cost more than a M030 or ROW M030 suspension. Hence, why the ROW M030 is the best starting point in terms of handling balance, ride height, ride and cost. You can always start this way and then change sway bars to H&R or GT3's to get more adjustment.

Dan,

Do your mean toe-out or toe-in? Front or Rear? Toeing out the front will improve turn-in, but less stability. Normally, you then toe in the back to get the car stable. The car will tramline with the road and bump-steer with impacts with a lot more with toe. The more toe you run, the more feathering and faster wear you will see on your tires. For dedicated autocorssing, you normally put a lot of toe out in the front to get turn-in at low speeds. I used to run 1/4 degree per side on my Miata. To keep it stable (from spinning all the time), I run toe out front and rear on my Miata. Since I spend more time on the track, I have the 996 set with less toe out on both ends. Although it does change turn-in, it does not change balance.

The reason why you get understeer or oversteer has more to do with weight transfer. Changing toe, won't change how weight transfers in acceleration, braking or cornering. Going to a larger front sway bar applies more weight/grip to the back increasing understeer. Going to a larger rear sway applies more weight to the front, reducing understeer or increasing oversteer. The same is true by increasing spring rates. If the car understeers and you add toe, it will still understeer. It is just able to change the turning angle faster.

Edited July 31, 2006 by 02 Carrera

[cyclocross]

Dan,

Do your mean toe-out or toe-in? Front or Rear?

From the magazine "Jon Oakley, states that Carreras leave the factory with the front wheels set to toe-out to induce understeer. Oakley resets the wheels to be dead parallel." The article is confusing as to his discussion being applicable to a C2 or a C4.

[jaded996]

I did my rear sawy bar and it was easy. On the fronts it looks like i need to remove the front underbody panel. It looks like it is held on with a series of clips. Do you just have to take those clips off to remove it so I can access the bolts and remove/replace the front way bar?