RMS Leak

[Poursha]

I noticed a few black spots on my garage floor Saturday and today the dealer said it was a RMS leak. They used the measurement tool and said it was OK so they just need to replace the seal, but are also going to measure it the old fashioned way, to double check that it's OK.

I watched them put the measurement tool on the car, and it didn't seem to slip right on smoothly--it had to be moved a bit and I heard a bit of a click. The tech said the the test was OK. Any comments on this?

Here's a pic I took. Near the bottom, there's a circular thing (is this the intermediate shaft?), and there's a lot of discoloration there. I realize the oil dripping from the RMS would go down there, but could it be that there is a leak there as well?

Any thing I should ask or point out to them?

[Tool Pants]

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15

That is the measuring mandrel. The seal is removed and if the mandrel fits in the seal bore then you get another seal. Before the mandrel they would measure by hand with calipers. I am on the UK Boxster board and they do not use this tool. They simply replace the seal, after seal, after seal, Never replace the engine. The Porsche Club of GB is taking a survey now in order to deal with Porsche. Sometimes they even make the owner pay for a seal replacement - their warranty is 2 years.

I have been waiting for the first report from a 2004 owner. I started Boxstering 5 years ago and there were the same complaints before I started.

How many miles.

[Poursha]

This is the measuring tool they used. It didn't just slip right in--he had to move it around a bit--is that normal?

Only 7K miles--what a hassle.

They also have a new TSB on stereo problems. On mine the CD 1 button doesn't function properly, the sound settings (bass/treble) reset themselves periodically, and one day the system kept turning itself off. The new TSB says to replace the radio, CD changer and amp, and update all the SW.

[Tom Sch]

i have also a "date" with the mechanik next week to change the RMS :(

Targa 07/2002 22.500km

[Scouser]

The Porsche Club of GB is taking a survey now in order to deal with Porsche.

I didn't have any part in it honest ;)

[Tool Pants]

The TSB for the measuring mandrel is on the board. It was issued on March 3, 2003. The mandrel is supposed to slide in the seal bore with slight resistence. If it does then you get another seal.

Peter at Stevens Creek Porsche showed us the latest seal tools at last years tech session.

For Scouser, the PCGB survey is being sent only to Boxster owners I think. They should have included 996s. But what is a survey going to do? Tell Porsche something it has known for many years?

[umn]

...

I am on the UK Boxster board and they do not use this tool.  They simply replace the seal, after seal, after seal,  Never replace the engine.

...

I'd be very surprised if that was true. Certainly my 996 was tested with the mandrel at **** Lovett Porsche in Swindon.

Cheers,

Uwe

Edited June 9, 2004 by umn

[Poursha]

Here's a few more pix

The transmission, clutch and flywheel are removed, exposing the front of the engine:

The culprit--the rear main seal (the old one, which is deformed at the bottom from being pulled out):

Rector in Burlingame once again providing excellent service.

[Scouser]

Gee Poursha I am so reluctant to replying to your posting cos it gets me so damned mad and annoyed at Porsche.......and tommorow my 996 goes in for yes, you guessed it folks....its 5th RMS!

But 7k miles is just plain not on.

If it was me I would take it right back and demand a refund or a replacement new car. (You can do that here in the UK).

I would then send a letter to Porsche that said something along the lines of "get your act together Porsche else you will lose customers".

That's it I am going to bed......I am real pissed.

[Poursha]

Gee Poursha I am so reluctant to replying to your posting cos it gets me so damned mad and annoyed at Porsche.......and tommorow my 996 goes in for yes, you guessed it folks....its 5th RMS!

But 7k miles is just plain not on.

If it was me I would take it right back and demand a refund or a replacement new car. (You can do that here in the UK).

I would then send a letter to Porsche that said something along the lines of "get your act together Porsche else you will lose customers".

That's it I am going to bed......I am real pissed.

I'm not a happy camper--for sure.

I hope Porsche is covering your ***5th*** RMS leak.

Now you say you are real pissed...as I recall from living in Amsterdam, and traveling to the UK a few times a month, pissed means something completely different in the UK than it does in the US!!!! :cheers: I suppose you just Americanized your English here!!! :cheers:

Edited June 10, 2004 by Poursha

[mffarrell]

I am sorry to hear about your RMS issue. I bet you feel like really getting "pissed".

I don't understand why Porsche still has this problem. I have owned many Porsche's over the past 30 years and I feel that the quality has regressed back to the 1970's when the engines leaked like a sieve.

Porsche seemed to clean up their act in 1984 with the Carrea. I have owned a 1995 993 since it was new and I never have any problems, yet alone any leaks whatsoever.

I just spent $90K on a new C2 a few months a go, now I am really concerned. I would really have to think twice about laying down almost a $100K for a potential time-bomb.

I asked my dealer about the RMS issue and he claims it's a non-issue with the 2003 on.

Someone is not telling the truth.

I hope all goes well for you and you never have another leak.

Edited June 10, 2004 by mffarrell

[Tool Pants]

...

I am on the UK Boxster board and they do not use this tool.  They simply replace the seal, after seal, after seal,  Never replace the engine.

...

I'd be very surprised if that was true. Certainly my 996 was tested with the mandrel at **** Lovett Porsche in Swindon.

Cheers,

Uwe

Well, then they need your help on the UK board boxa.net.

This is a recent post from Matt on that board.

"Got my car back after having 2nd RMS in 6 months. Just spoke to Customer Service Supervisor at Porsche and mentioned the above thread ie the Mandrel, crankshart being concentric to engine etc etc. He said never heard of this part, the causes are most probably incorrect fitting or a faulty seal, it is impossible to tell. He went onto say that if anything was misaligned there would be a lot of engine vibration, he also said that he had heard nothing about engines being replaced after 3 RMS failures in the USA. He said that he was only aware of a couple of cars having to have an RMS replaced more than once in a year. He is based at Chiswick Porsche."

Here is a link but you need to register on the board to see it. http://www.boxa.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=8186

[SFBayArea Jimmy]

The RMS issue sure has taken a big bite out of the joy of P-ownership in recent years, we all feel your pain Poursha, I know I do. Porsche can make it right by extending the warrenty, at least for the RMS, to 100K miles. :soapbox:

[CoreyNJ]

"Got my car back after having 2nd RMS in 6 months. Just spoke to Customer Service Supervisor at Porsche and mentioned the above thread ie the Mandrel, crankshart being concentric to engine etc etc. He said never heard of this part, the causes are most probably incorrect fitting or a faulty seal, it is impossible to tell. He went onto say that if anything was misaligned there would be a lot of engine vibration, he also said that he had heard nothing about engines being replaced after 3 RMS failures in the USA. He said that he was only aware of a couple of cars having to have an RMS replaced more than once in a year. He is based at Chiswick Porsche."

My dealer, who just did my RMS on my 2003 C2 said something similar, that the problem has been mostly solved in 2003 mid to late and after. He said since 2003, he hasn't really seen a problem due to a new insertion tool/method at the factory.

He mentioned they have the new insertion tool since late last year also and that many of the "repeat" RMS were due to insertion by just banging it in by hammer(causing an uneven or damaged seal due to insertion) even though the engine was concentric. He said in the rare case the engine was out of spec, they'd just give you a new/reman engine even on the 1st RMS.

Basically, he is saying there was a small amount engines that were bad, but mostly it was the way the service tech were replacing RMS's causing the multi-RMS problem and that the same guys would be replacing their faulty handiwork over and over again the same way.

My RMS was done as a just in case since my transmission and flywheel was out of the car. They said it was Standard operating procedure that anytime they have a tranny out to change it, since everything is apart anyway. If guessing that if many dealers did this before the new insertion tool, they caused perfectly good cars to now have RMS problems when they used a hammer to put them in.

[Scouser]

Jeff, I can honestly, hand on heart, certify that what Matt said in that comment is true because its almost word for word how I would explain

my dealings with Porsche UK customer services. They don't seem to think that the 996 RMS problem is an issue here in the UK. They make out like "we never heard of it". But when I go to tech9 (a good independent) they said that it's one of their main lines of business for out of warranty 996's. Furthermore, today when I took my car in to have its 5th RMS done, there was a chap behind me waiting in the queue to be seen. He was booking in for an RMS too. Apparently his 2nd.

So it seems clear to me that Porsche are in total denial of this RMS problem.

[DaveMo]

I don't think they are in denial, I think they don't want to officially acknowledge that they have a manufacturing problem. It would just invite lawsuits. As to whether the new seals with the revised replacement method will work, only time will tell. No one knows how these seals will perform when the car has 60K + miles on it. The new seals haven't been in the cars long enough.

[Poursha]

I don't think they are in denial, I think they don't want to officially acknowledge that they have a manufacturing problem.  It would just invite lawsuits.  As to whether the new seals with the revised replacement method will work, only time will tell.  No one knows how these seals will perform when the car has 60K + miles on it. The new seals haven't been in the cars long enough.

My car is a '04 and has the new version seal, so my sample size of 1 says the new seal isn't a panacea, at least after 7,000 miles!

[Stevo'99]

Is this a rare thing? Does anyone have info on % of 996's that have had these issues?

[mdillian3690]

I am concerned as well. I just bought my 00 C2 Trip. What is the cost if out of warranty?

[Stevo'99]

$800-$1000 has been the price range I've seen other's post. A new engine if it fails? $8k - ouch!

[Poursha]

Update--the intermediate shaft seal was also leaking so they replaced it.

Plus both doors window lift mechanisms replaced due to the famous streak marks on the windows (I've had this in all 3 of my 996 Carreras).

Oh--and the amplifier, head unit and CD changer are being replaced today due to various issues.

[jimmy1117]

Plus both doors window lift mechanisms replaced due to the famous streak marks on the windows (I've had this in all 3 of my 996 Carreras).

Poursha,

Can you briefly describe what the "Famous Streak" is? Or some pix of it? Thanks !

[CoreyNJ]

I have the streaks also, my boxster didn't. Is this a warranty thing...

[Poursha]

The streak marks are caused by the regulator pads (each window has 2) getting dirty and smearing the windows (these pads press against the windows to keep them from rattling). Covered by warranty. This is the second time I've had this issue with my 7,000 mile '04 Carrera, and also had it on my first 2 996 Carreras--multiple times on the first one.

I saw a Carrera GT at the dealer today (was in to have the car raised 1/2"--it's the owner's daily driver), and I saw a streak on the passenger window!

[n4das]

I have to say that what you guys get in the states as far as warranties and customer service seems at odds with what we here in the U.k. have experienced.

I have just been told that my hardly used 996 trip with 30k on the clock fully serviced at OPC needs a new engine!!! and since its out of the 2 year warranty cost would be £9,750(ie $16,770!!!)

I would value your thoughts especially if any of you have had similar problems. I am trying tocreate a datbase of cars needing Total engine replacements so anyone got info would be most welcome

Dr Mahen Nadarajah