02 Boxster with 27K Engine Blown. Is it the IMS Failure

[thescottrobinson]

2 days ago I was driving around 30mph and without warning my 02 Boxster 2.7 made a weird noise and shut down. I tried to restart the car and the engine would knock but would not remain running. I have recently bought the car from a good friend so I know that the car was taken care of.

I had it towed to the local dealer who indicated that a replacement engine was needed. The dealer said without opening up the engine they could not determine exactly the cause of the engine failure. But they could tell me the following

There was small pieces of metal within the oil filter casing

The Bank 1 Oil Scavenge Pump was seized

The Bank 1 Cam Sprocket had failed

The Bank 1 Cam Chain had failed

Does anyone know how all this damage could happen without warning and a matter of seconds? Does this sound like the intermediate shaft failure problem that is well documented? If so, has anyone been able to get PCNA to pay for a new engine even out of warranty.

Any help would be awesome. I am looking at a 15K bill right now.

Edited May 2, 2008 by thescottrobinson

[systech]

2 days ago I was driving around 30mph and without warning my 02 Boxster 2.7 made a weird noise and shut down. I tried to restart the car and the engine would knock but would not remain running. I have recently bought the car from a good friend so I know that the car was taken care of.

I had it towed to the local dealer who indicated that a replacement engine was needed. The dealer said without opening up the engine they could not determine exactly the cause of the engine failure. But they could tell me the following

There was small pieces of metal within the oil filter casing

The Bank 1 Oil Scavenge Pump was seized

The Bank 1 Cam Sprocket had failed

The Bank 1 Cam Chain had failed

Does anyone know how all this damage could happen without warning and a matter of seconds? Does this sound like the intermediate shaft failure problem that is well documented? If so, has anyone been able to get PCNA to pay for a new engine even out of warranty.

Any help would be awesome. I am looking at a 15K bill right now.

Ordinarilly the IMS failure is accompanied by oil over the road because the end of the IMS shears off causing the bearing to dislodge. I'm not sure how they came to the conclusion that the cam sprockets and chains failed without opening the engine although this is often the end result of the failure of the IMS shaft / bearing.

If this is true, I'm afraid you're up for replacement engine (either one from a wrecker ..what do you call them in the US? ) or a reconditioned Porsche engine at around $10K.

However, I would certainly talk to the local Porsche dealer. Although they don't like to admit it, this is an all too common fault which often happens at around 30K miles and they have been known to replace the engine at no cost or at least contribute to the costs even if the car is out of warranty (may depend on whether you have used Porsche dealers for servcing etc.). There have been various modifications done in later models to increase the size of the thread / nut at the end of the IMS to avoid this happening which in my view is tantamount to admission of an initially inadequate design.

Worth a try.

[RFM]

Your dealer got right, without dismantling the engine he cant determine the cause. Timing chain fail ( broken ) on his own or by a blocked scavenge pump is an issue which comes every now and than, not very common. The intermediate shaft failure have nothing to do with this problem IMHO. Spontaneously broken timing chains gives unfortunately no warning signs. I don't no what the mileage on the car is, but you can try to get a commercial intervention ( kulanz ) in the costs, if you don't shoot you cant hit.

[thescottrobinson]

Sorry. The car only had 27K mileage on it. If you don't think its caused by the IMS problem what would cause Metal to be in the Oil Filter housing?

-Scott

[RFM]

A piece of the timing chain pitch, or scavenge pump rotor pieces for example, it depends on what kind of metal they have fond in the filter housing. It still a guess without opening the engine.

[savowood]

Since you're looking at $15k to put a new 2.7 in there, I can highly recommend putting a 3.4 (or bigger) from a 996 in there. I blew my motor and replaced it with a 12k mile 3.4 from a 996. I don't regret it for even a second. I spent $15k for the entire process including a PSS9 and a fresh set of Toyo R compounds.

You don't say where you are, but I'm in the DC area and shipped my car to Roock in Atlanta to have it done. Autobahn Ambition magazine did an article on the whole thing in their current issue.

http://www.autobahnambitionmag.com/

Get the free registration and read the article. I think it starts on page 34 or close thereto.

-Michael

[thescottrobinson]

I am in Atlanta so I will look into that option. If I have to pony up the 15k I might as will get a bigger engine plus not contribute any money to Porsche or the dealership.

Thanks for the idea

Here's the status of my case with Porsche

Porsche NA has escalated the case to the "Out of Warranty" dept. but they refuse to call me back. I have sent a mass email asking for assistance or just for an FYI to such groups as the BBB, GA Governors office, local Media, CNN, Government officials, dept of commerce. I am just surprised that Porsche NA will not even communicate with me. I love Porsche cars and I knew after 2 weeks of owning my first I would never own anything else. But with the lack of respect that customer commitment has shown me I would have to rethink my feelings.

Edited May 5, 2008 by thescottrobinson

[mikes_box]

any news on the car?

[thescottrobinson]

I have been really busy at work so I have not been able to keep on the case as much as I would like too. I have escalated the case within Porsche NA but have not received a call from them. I have started a case with the Better Business Bureau and who should be in contact with them. I was thinking of hiring some day workers to picket outside Porsche NA until they give me a call back. LOL. The whole situation is just so disheartening. I finally own a Porsche and the baby dies on me 2 weeks in.

I just can't believe the lack of communication that they are giving me. It is like they don't care about owners of Mint condition Porsches that just blow up.

[skidmark]

I just got off the phone with a high-end Porsche only shop service manager here in Seattle who didn't mind spending some time with me. My 2002 Boxster S started making the kind of noise yesterday usually indicative of an intermediate shaft failure. I drove 6 miles with the noise before shutting down. The motor was running and smoothly at shutdown. The guy said that indicated the timing apparatus was still intact, which is good, and the motor is almost certainly rebuildable. Estimated cost: around $8,000. Not good. Mileage on car is only 23,000 and I only put 3,000 of that on.

What I want to know is, can the shaft replacement, etc. be done at home by someone who has reasonable experience (but not on a Porsche)? Is it ridiculous to even think about doing this myself? I have an open pit in my garage floor for access.

[skidmark]

Ordinarilly the IMS failure is accompanied by oil over the road because the end of the IMS shears off causing the bearing to dislodge. I'm not sure how they came to the conclusion that the cam sprockets and chains failed without opening the engine although this is often the end result of the failure of the IMS shaft / bearing.

The way they know the timing apparatus failed is simple: the car either won't start or starts and knocks and runs rough, which is what you would expect if the timing was way off.

[juniinc]

I just got off the ph with skidmark since he doesn't live too far from me.

Notorious IMS failure on a 986. It's pretty ridiculous how your close to $30,000 car engine gives up around 25,000 miles,,,

shaft bearing, seal? who knows.

As he mentioned timing is still intact, oil hasn't poured yet.

but, U pretty much have to open up the engine/ requires 100% dissemble of the engine. And it's very expensive to re-build a 986S engine even if U know how to do it (something even a dealer tech guy would hesitate to do?)

Motor Meister sells re manufactured engine for about $5999 w/ rebuildable exchane.

Edited June 1, 2008 by juniinc

[usaf-lt-g]

Ouch... Is this issue even common on an 00' Boxster S 3.2L 6-speed manual? My car has 72K on it, seems to be running very smooth and as far as I know the previous owner did not have this issue. I typicaaly only drive her during the summer, and the occassional cross-country meets. Or is this an issue only for lower-mileage type Boxsters?

Gracias.

[skidmark]

I have become pretty educated fast on this subject, unfortunately, and I have found that past 30-45k miles it is very rare indeed. I have gotten some detailed info on the problem from England's largest Porsche rebuilder who describes the problem and Porsche's errors and suggests the only way to really get a fix is to collect a hundred or so victims of this design flaw and collectively sue Porsche, which he also suggests would be a monumental task which Porsche counts on. I may post his emails sometime but not now since he is afraid of publicity in that Porsche may retaliate by cutting off his parts supplies. I want to show them to the dealer first where my car was originally sold. There are cars out there (I am told) with well over 100k, even 200k miles on them.

Edited June 3, 2008 by skidmark

[silver arrow]

I'm at 58,000 miles on my 2000 Boxster and getting ready to drive up the east coast from GA to CT and back next month. I have only put 2000 miles on the car since purchase. I'm scared, hold me. :lol:

[juniinc]

I put about 3500miles back to back from Seattle to Los angeles. She loved it, 1000miles a day rarely stopping

[thescottrobinson]

The status of my dealings with Porsche:

I have received a letter from Porsche that states they refuse to pay for a new engine. They have refused to call me back and discuss. I have started a complain with BBB in Atlanta and have contacted several other consumer groups.

IF ANYONE else has experience this or any other complete engine failure on low mileage Boxsters please email me. I want to get as many cases as possible.

-Scott Robinson

Edited June 3, 2008 by thescottrobinson

[ChrisZang]

just for my own education (btw: I have a 2002S with IMS failure @ 51k miles currently in the shop, actually since almost 2 months as I am haggling with my extended warranty)

I found the following in the Bentley book:

2001 model year:

"To reduce timing chain noise, the intermediate shaft drive chain was converted from a roller type chain to a tooth type chain. This change also required modifications to the crankshaft and intermediate shaft sprockets and corresponding chain tensioners"

My understanding is that this is the actual change in engine design which is the root cause for the IMS failures.

This would also mean that 2000 and earlier Boxster models don't have this problem (Am I right or wrong?)

The bonus question then is: Starting with which year did Porsche fix this flaw, meaning from which year on should IMS failure no longer happen?

[juniinc]

2000 & earlier models whould have more problem . A larger rear bearing, plus a wider and more effective oil seal was first fitted in 2001,,,I believe.

But,

" But introduced in the 2001, on engines in order to reduce noise, this later shaft also has a toothed wheel to take a similarly toothed drive chain, whereas the earlier type had double chain sprockets, which of course means that this later shaft will also not be compatible with the integral chainwheel on the earlier crankshafts"?

just for my own education (btw: I have a 2002S with IMS failure @ 51k miles currently in the shop, actually since almost 2 months as I am haggling with my extended warranty)

I found the following in the Bentley book:

2001 model year:

"To reduce timing chain noise, the intermediate shaft drive chain was converted from a roller type chain to a tooth type chain. This change also required modifications to the crankshaft and intermediate shaft sprockets and corresponding chain tensioners"

My understanding is that this is the actual change in engine design which is the root cause for the IMS failures.

This would also mean that 2000 and earlier Boxster models don't have this problem (Am I right or wrong?)

The bonus question then is: Starting with which year did Porsche fix this flaw, meaning from which year on should IMS failure no longer happen?

[Tool Pants]

And then it goes boom....

[Macster]

From the description and such sounds very much like an IMS failure.

Not all failures result in a breach of the engine cases. I saw one Carrera engine with an IMS failure that the damaged was mild enough the engine was going to be rebuilt at the dealership.

In your car's case, though, rebuilding is out of the question. With metal debris in teh filter housing, with one or more oil scavenge pumps seized from the debris the metal debris contamination is just too widespread and into too many critical areas to make the rebuilding anything but a very very risky undertaking.

Either you're faced with sourcing a new/replacement engine from Porsche or some used engine from another (private seller or salvage yard) source. You can if you go the second route consider having installed a bigger engine.

As you have already found out, Porsche not likely to offer any help.

Unfortunately, with used low mileage Boxsters there is a very real risk the engine will fail like this with the second or 3rd owner. Upkeep, servicing, useage doesn't seem to play a role. The only common denominator is the cars usually have low miles -- under 50,000 or 60,000 is suspect -- and that's about it.

Sincerely,

Macster.

[Macster]

I just got off the phone with a high-end Porsche only shop service manager here in Seattle who didn't mind spending some time with me. My 2002 Boxster S started making the kind of noise yesterday usually indicative of an intermediate shaft failure. I drove 6 miles with the noise before shutting down. The motor was running and smoothly at shutdown. The guy said that indicated the timing apparatus was still intact, which is good, and the motor is almost certainly rebuildable. Estimated cost: around $8,000. Not good. Mileage on car is only 23,000 and I only put 3,000 of that on.

What I want to know is, can the shaft replacement, etc. be done at home by someone who has reasonable experience (but not on a Porsche)? Is it ridiculous to even think about doing this myself? I have an open pit in my garage floor for access.

At this stage just a shaft R&R not likely to meet with success. By continuing to drive car, run engine, likely some metal debris has been spread through engine.

Before undertaking any restoration of this engine, the oil filter housing would need to be removed, the oil drained, and the camshaft covers removed and signs of any metal debris in any of these areas looked for.

If none found, and I mean none found after a very thorough examination with a strong light and by someone who knows what he's doing and has done this before (and would be on the hook to make good the engine should he make a mistake and miss something), then the engine could be removed from car, disassembled, cleaned up and all worn or damaged parts replaced, engine buttoned up again and installed back in car.

Not cheap. And not for the learner...

Unless the problem proves to be superficial -- like just a bad/noisy chain guide -- and this can only be determined by some disassembly of the engine -- your best chance for getting the car back on the road is having a new Porsche engine installed. 2nd best chance would be to find a good engine from a wrecked car and have that installed.

Sincerely,

Macster.

[demonz]

How can we prevent this IMS failure? How about tapping the suspect bolt and installing a larger one with some loctite? Or maybe have a toolmaker fab up some higher grade bolts like ARP?

I would love to have some peace of mind, so please chime in and tell me what's actually breaking? What's the diagnosis?

Edited June 8, 2008 by demonz

[Tool Pants]

There is a bearing on the end of the shaft. I have been told Porsche went from a double to a single bearing. I was told the year but forget - I think 2001. This is why you seldom hear of intermediate shaft failures on the older cars.

Picture is a 2003 2.7.

[Tromaras]

Hi,

I m just another 2002 Boxster S guy with the usual IMS failure. Located in Newport beach, california. It happened a few days ago. I m currently trying to resolve the situation with Western General (an extended warranty company). Hopefully they ll pay part (or all) of the repairs and engine replacement. If not, I will have spent 2200 dollars to have the engine disassembled for nothing. In case you are wondering: this is what western general requires me to do. Then they send someone to the dealership to take some photos of the parts and after a few days =decide whether they ll want to pay or not... I seriously hope I m not going to have to write an angry/dissapointed entry next week. I know I have taken good care of the car. Had it serviced regularly (at the dealership) and never pushed it hard. I ve driven and owned other (cheaper) cars before for longer and never had an engine fail on me like this!

Irrespective of what happens with the warranty company, I have to say I m extremely disappointed with Porsche! Like other guys here, I expected a certain quality standard. And I know other manufacturers (like BMW) would have taken steps to resolve what appears to be a serious design or manufacturing flaw!

I m also wondering how many people there are in my situation? I know there are a couple in this thread alone. I mean, is it worth gathering a few signatures and preparing a class action suit? Under some conditions I believe you are entitled to compensation even if you 've already (wrongfully) paid for it in the past. Maybe something like that and a consistent spamming of various enthusiast car websites/magazines would wake Porsche up!

I know the Boxster model is their cheapest one, but noone deserves this!